Child Killed By Dog

[Pendlewitch]

I see so many aggressive dogs on our walks, I can't really say how many are in the hands of an aggressive person or just the misguided or even the plain stupid but I can say they are not all one type or breed.

 

At the time the police probably thought shooting the dog was the only solution and I'm inclined to agree with them because in the end it would have been PTS anyway.

 

What really happened no-one will ever properly know but once again a child has been killed in an horrific way and it keeps on happening. What's the solution, I don't know but some action has to be taken but idiots like Holly W mouthing off on TV when they don't know one end of the dog from another do not help the situation.

 

Would licensing help, the dog would be issued with a tag and chipped, any dog found without a tag is impounded and a heavy fine imposed, plus kennel fees?

[cycas]

Forget the breed, there seems in some areas to be a general culture of bad ownership. I really get the impression that bad ownership is normalised and accepted because everybody is doing it. How you break that cycle of behaviour I don't know.

[collies r best]

According to ceefax news the Merseyside Police have said the dog was a breed of pitbull illegal under the Dangerous Dog Act.

Not sure if that means it was a pitbull or a 'type'

[cycas]

According to ceefax news the Merseyside Police have said the dog was a breed of pitbull illegal under the Dangerous Dog Act.

Not sure if that means it was a pitbull or a 'type'

 

I'm guessing that it probably at least means that it wasn't brought up carefully socialised with small children, other dogs, in and out of the house, in lots of different locations and situations, with odd noises - and very likely not well exercised, trained etc, as it would have been at risk of being seized if out and about?

 

Poor kid. Poor dog.

 

Does anyone else ever wonder what might have happened if instead of trying to remove 'weapon dogs' on merseyside, there had been a concentrated campaign to get the dogs and their owners socialised, trained, exercised and fed properly...?

Edited December 1, 2009 by cycas

[Melp]

In the wake of the tragic death of Jon Paul Massey in Liverpool in the early hours of Monday 30th November, Deed Not Breed and the Bull Breed Advisory Service urge dog owners to remain calm. If your dog has never shown any aggressive behaviour, it is unlikely to do so without warning. All dogs have the potential to injure or kill a person but thankfully, serious incidents are extremely rare.

 

There is no need to panic and no need to abandon your dog. If you are at all concerned about your dogs behaviour, contact a vet or a qualified behaviourist in the first instance.

 

If you see a dog behaving dangerously in a public place, contact the police immediately.

 

Deed Not Breed offer free legal advice and assistance to owners of dogs, police forces, local authorities and solicitors.

Our help lines are open 7 days a week until 10.30pm. Calls are charged at national rates.

 

By Telephone

General Enquiries - 0844 815 6630

Help Lines - 0844 815 6620 & 0844 815 6610

 

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In the vast majority, if not all cases, a dog will give signs that he or she is about to bite. You, as a responsible dog owner should be aware of these signs and know how to react to them.

 

As owners of dogs of ANY breed, it is our responsibility to ensure the safety of both children and adults.

 

If you are faced with the immediate threat of being bitten. STAND STILL. Back away slowly, avoiding direct eye contact with the animal. DO NOT RUN.

Do not corner the animal, make sudden and loud noises [such as screaming] or sudden movements.

Educate yourself and children. The majority of bites occur in the home and almost all can be avoided.

Do not allow children to stroke, prod or otherwise disturb a sleeping dog, one that is eating or caring for puppies.

Do not allow children to hug dogs around the neck, lean over [and therefore threaten] a dog, grab and pull ears, tails, fur etc.

Do not leave any dog unsupervised with any child, even your own. A dog can bite several times in a matter of seconds.

 

 

 

 

[purple_mog]

may I crosspost please Mel?

[Mrs Mop]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/8389013.stm

 

 

The force has apologised after earlier reports of dog breeding at the Ash Grove property were not followed up.

 

No comment, I don't trust myself.

[KathyM]

Completely agree. I would rather see DNB on than not, although understand it would be daunting when everyone's so stuck on being biased. ETA: This was in reply to DNB going on telly, not subsequent posts that appeared out of nowhere (my computer is mad I swear!).

 

It is being reported that the dog in this case has been confirmed as an illegal "breed", the "pit bull type". Earlier they were saying it was an American Bulldog. And everyone's commenting on Staffies on TV and the likes - nice to see they can narrow it down.

Edited December 1, 2009 by KathyM

[Ingrid]

Very tragic

 

Two doors away from are two dogs, both of active breeds who are never seen walked, spend there lives in the back garden, twice in the last week they have escaped and bitten people Neither are bull breeds, the one that attacks is a border collie, the other a GSD under a year old, very nervous and runs if you shout at it, which the BC will also do as this is the only way they are spoken to, and I speak from personal confrontation here. The owners reply when told of the second attack was that all dogs bite !!!!

This is going to legal action now, as we are very concerned because the school is close and twice a day kids walk by, it's just another accident waiting to happen

[Laura_E]

It is being reported that the dog in this case has been confirmed as an illegal "breed", the "pit bull type". Earlier they were saying it was an American Bulldog. And everyone's commenting on Staffies on TV and the likes - nice to see they can narrow it down.

 

Exactly.

 

This morning (on This Morning ) Philip Schofield was actually stupid enough to ask the behaviourist 'if you breed an aggressive staffy with another aggressive staffy, do you end up with a pitbull?'

 

(Sorry to keep going on about This Morning, it just really annoyed me!)

[rip and cap]

What terrible news again.

 

I think we are seeing a repeat of Ellie Lawinsons case here. Because the police have failed again, their amnesty was unseccessful and failed to prevent this terrible tragedy they are turning the blame to the breed and again putting the fear off god in to people about the APBT.

[rip and cap]

Whilst I agree with Roger that it would be helpful to keep dogs alive for behavioral examination, there are cases where that's just not possible. I think given the circumstances in this case, the police had no choice but to shoot the dog.

 

DNB have been asked to appear on BBC Breakfast. Given the kind of reaction those defending dogs recieve, I don't think so.

 

 

Why not???

 

No need to loose your rag on there just speak sense. The only reason the public are reacting in this way is due to beeb propagander.

[sanrossscot]

It must be daunting thought to be on TV, but I hope you would think about it. We need a public voice to try and put the other side of the arguments. Could you state that you won't discuss specifics of this attack as you don't know all the circumstances, but speak generally about what you have done to help??

 

J Vine was discussing this on R2, I didn't hear all of it but app there was a bloke who had been attacked in the 70's by a Rough Collie, then another whose dog had been attacked by two farm collies. JV's comment was then 'that's two attacks by collies, should they be classed as dangerous' - FFS they are separate breeds to start with!!!

[Rumpole]

personally despite not being a great lover of police handling as far as dogs go i think the police per se are actually getting a bit of a raw deal here

 

A housing officer called into the police (presumably local call centre not via 999)complaining about an address where dogs were being bred now ive heard three seperate versions of how that complaint was made on three different news channels

 

1. that pit bull terriers were being bred at the address

 

APBT are illegal in the uk so even a report of posession should have been passed onto the section responsible for dealing with illegal breeds as per police policy the officer making statements to the media yesterday clearly said that that policy had not been followed, so i dont think that the dangerous dogs section can be expected to be telepathic and act on a report they havent received.

if this is the case there will be a call centre worker somewhere who will have to live with their mistake for the rest of their days (feeling responsible for the death of a child is not something i would want on my conscience)

 

2. that aggressive dogs were being bred at an address (without mention of those dogs being illegal)

 

if that is the case and i was the person who answered the phone at the call centre (and not all are police officers some are civilian) i would have said "is there evidence that the dogs in question have acted aggressively in public."

if the answer to that was no then i would have to reply that in that case this was not a police matter as it is not illegal to breed aggressive dogs it is only an offence when that aggression causes harm or reason to believe it might cause harm to a person.

 

3. That dogs were being bred at the premises

 

My reply would be that it is not a criminal offence to breed dogs therefore is not a police matter, and that if there were concerns re the breeding that the local authority are responsible for dealing with what they allow to take place in their housing stock and if there were welfare concerns then rspca should additionally be contacted.

 

if either of the last two scenarios are the case then it is the local authority themselves who instead of ringing the police should be dealing with issues that they as owners of the property in which this incident took place are responsible for not passing the buck onto the police who should be dealing with crime.

 

this whole tragic incident should not be about laying blame it should be about ascertaining the CAUSE of this little boys death it is only collating the information into what causes fatal attacks that we will be able to educate the public and prevent them happening in future.

 

I think we are seeing a repeat of Ellie Lawinsons case here. Because the police have failed again, their amnesty was unseccessful and failed to prevent this terrible tragedy they are turning the blame to the breed and again putting the fear off god in to people about the APBT.

 

the amnesty failed because the legislation has failed. but i must say i am surprised that this time there are far more positive statements being made instead of the usual tripe about devil dogs, and behaviourists are being given far more opportunity to raise the important issue of responsible dog ownership which is the only way of tackling the problem of aggression in dogs.

In the fullness of time the truth about this case will be revealed and there WILL be a trigger to what has happened, dogs always have a reason for an attack its just that their reasons are not always acceptable to us humans. The real problem is getting people who feel it would never happen in their home because only bad dogs bite to accept that it can and does happen and sometimes with tragic consequences such as these

[Melp]

What terrible news again.

 

I think we are seeing a repeat of Ellie Lawinsons case here. Because the police have failed again, their amnesty was unseccessful and failed to prevent this terrible tragedy they are turning the blame to the breed and again putting the fear off god in to people about the APBT.

 

 

I disagree. Ellie Lawrensen didn't die because the police failed. She died because of irresponsible ownership and a law that failed. The police enforce the law, they don't write it.

As far as I can see, the police are not blaming the breed, the media are doing that! The police have merely stated what breed [type] the dog was.

 

The amnesty was a disaster for more than one reason;

Many dogs died and many families were devastated by the loss of their pets. It was a typical knee jerk reaction to a terrible tragedy and those dogs died because of the way they looked.

The costs of the amnesty, kennelling, vet fees and court cases was massive, and continues to this day [to a much lesser degree]. Hundreds of thousands of pounds were spent.

Rescue centres locally and further afield were overwhelmed with the numbers of dogs being abandoned. Undoubtedly many more animals died during the wave of panic than have been accounted for in the offical amnesty figures.

 

Would John Paul Massey have died if the police had responded to the initial call? Quite possibly. Even if they'd visited, decided the dog was type and seized it, the courts may well have exempted the dog. Would that have saved this young boy? No, because the restrictions state that the dogs must be muzzled in a public place. NOT in the home where this incident occurred.

 

The police have a policy in place whereby they carry out a risk assessment [among other things] on dogs they say are type. If the dog and owner pass the assessment, the dog is left at home prior to the court hearing. Typically, dogs are now only in kennels for a couple of weeks.

When this policy was introduced, we all thought it was wonderful. I still do.

Suppose this particualar dog had passed its risk assessment [no reason why it shouldn't. According to some neighbours it was a nice dog] Suppose the police then left this dog at home and this tragedy had occurred. The police would be hung drawn and quartered for their decision.

Does that mean that no dogs should be left, just in case? Would be really be happy with that? The police are damned whatever they do.

 

I hated what they did in 2007. I hated the Chief Con for holding the amnesty and the officers for following orders.

I hate that children have died and that people suffered serious injury in dog attacks and that people ALWAYS blame the breed.

I hate that people think it'll never happen to them. It can and it does!

I hate the law and I hate injustice. This law is unjust.

 

Most of all I hate ignorance and ignorance is what keeps on killing children.

 

We have a law that states that certain breeds and their types are illegal to own. What we need is to educate people on responsible and safe dog ownership no matter what the breed.

We need to understand why [in a case such as this] a dog has bitten and then gone on to kill. We need to know what triggered that [and other] attacks and we need to teach people how to properly raise and care for a dog, stay safe and keep others safe.

These incidents will happen time and time again unless we can educate everyone. Not just dog owners but everyone.

 

Kids learn that if you put your fingers in the fire they'll get burnt. Whats so different about teaching them that if you poke a dog in the eye, eventually it'll bite? [thats an example, I don't personally know of any child poking a dog in the eye]

 

Whatever has happened in this tragic case will eventually come out. What will be learned from it?

God help the next child if the answer is nothing.