Fee Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 The advice to let your dog go, as the cows will follow the dog and a dog can easily outrun cows is all well and good, but it does depend on your dog a) understanding it's in danger and b) having the sense to do something about it. I'm not sure my lot have that much sense. Taz and Jess would probably decide to have a fabulous running game, with dodging the big black and white things adding a bit more fun Meg would stand firm and do her very best and loudest barking Sophie would hide behind my legs Benji would probably run - until some really really interesting smell distracted him and he decided to stop to investigate On the 'survival skills' scale my dogs are probably pretty near the bottom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helly Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 The updated story in the dail mail today says she was a vet. perhaps she works with cows and didnt see them as a threat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackmagic Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 Although not yet formally identified, she is a 49 year old vet from Warrington, Cheshire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyMalc Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 It's very sad - poor woman. How would you change the law? You cannot ban a farmer from keeping cows in a field where there is a footpath, it would make his farm unusable if he had a lot of footpaths. Farmers are not allowed to place dairy bulls (the most aggressive) in fields with footpaths. I always avoid fields where there are calves. I would expect that farmers, for the sake of their livestock as well as people who can be reasonably expected to use the footpaths through their fields, have a duty of care. We, as dog walkers, are expected to have our dogs on leads and not to disturb and frighten the poor animals. Is it then too much to ask that I would expect to not endanger my own as well as my dogs' lives while abiding by the law? Maybe farmers can fance at least some of the path off with electrical wire or what have ya, I'd rather have an electric shock should I unwittingly touch the wire than the imprint of a hoof on the back of my skull I have no great sympathy for famers or their difficulties - farming is an industry, pure and simple, and therefore farmers should be obliged to take the same measures as any other industry to protect the public. I do feel immense sympathy for their livestock and to my mind, they shouldn't be disturbed any more than they already are, by either humans or dogs. Considering they exist only to feed us, I think we might allow them some measure of peace for the short time they have to live. Exactly. I'm just as annoyed as the next person by those who are irresponsible enough to let their dogs off lead and their kids run riot around a farm. As much as I despise the industry, to me it comes down to manners and having respect. I note that the owners of our roads are not usually required to put up signs all along their length saying 'watch out or you'll be splatted by a guy in a Fiesta', nor do we generally expect all our cliffs to be fenced and festooned with signs saying 'land stops here'. All around the coast, people are floating on water that is not labelled 'this can drown you'. I feel that a certain amount of common sense is not too much to ask, really. I didn't find that comment not funny at all, to be honest. No, I don't expect to be warned about the guy in the Fiesta - just so that I can sue when it turned out to be a Beemer! - or that I will get wet when I jump in the sea. But there are signs who will tell me when I can expect to get hurt if I don't take precautions, like if I were to enter a building site or what have ya. There have been plenty of times when I was somewhere out in the country, following directions in a walking guide. I'd done 8 of a 10 mile circular walk and it tells me to "cross a field". The field concerned might not be flat, and I might be halfway before I find that it is home to a herd of cows (this has happened more than once). When you're in the middle of a field there ain't much that you can do if the herd decides that you're a threat. Or I might see the cows earlier on, but although I've got a map, I'm not familiar with the area, and you're forever told to "stick to the path." So then what am I to do? Like I said, I have climbed over walls and fences, with my dogs, to stick to the route as best as I could, without endangering my life. Is that so unreasonable? The advice to let your dog go, as the cows will follow the dog and a dog can easily outrun cows is all well and good, but it does depend on your dog a) understanding it's in danger and b) having the sense to do something about it. I'm not sure my lot have that much sense. Taz and Jess would probably decide to have a fabulous running game, with dodging the big black and white things adding a bit more fun Meg would stand firm and do her very best and loudest barking Sophie would hide behind my legs Benji would probably run - until some really really interesting smell distracted him and he decided to stop to investigate On the 'survival skills' scale my dogs are probably pretty near the bottom This is it: Malcolm didn't "do" running if it wasn't after a squirrel in his younger years, and not at all later on, so he would of been stampeded on. He would also freeze out of fear - not much good either. Kiera on the other hand would in no way run away from the cows and then wait for me nicely on the other side of the fence: she'd "play" with the cows and then race off to "play" with the sheep, in the process getting killed either by an irate cow or an irate farmer. While the fields might be the farmer's property, the paths through it are legally accessible by the public, whether or not they are knowledgeable about cows or not. I think it is fair to expect people to be respectful of any property they are entering. I also think it is reasonable to expect that people can do this and expect to not lose their lives - or their dogs lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houndwoman Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 I do think that farmers should put up some kind of warning signs as others have said, you may be walking across a field and not see them until it is too late. At least if you are warned you can decide whether you want to take the risk or not. Our neighbouring farmer had a bull in his fields with cows on a public footpath and one of our other neighbours who is a keen rambler was walking with a friend and had to run like hell when it took an interest in them She didn't complain to him as she is far too polite and was worried of upsetting him as he is her neighbour. I'm afraid I would take a different stance as it just lets him off the hook and next time someone could get killed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycas Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 (edited) I didn't find that comment not funny at all, to be honest. No, I don't expect to be warned about the guy in the Fiesta - just so that I can sue when it turned out to be a Beemer! - or that I will get wet when I jump in the sea. But there are signs who will tell me when I can expect to get hurt if I don't take precautions, like if I were to enter a building site or what have ya. There have been plenty of times when I was somewhere out in the country, following directions in a walking guide. I'd done 8 of a 10 mile circular walk and it tells me to "cross a field". The field concerned might not be flat, and I might be halfway before I find that it is home to a herd of cows (this has happened more than once). When you're in the middle of a field there ain't much that you can do if the herd decides that you're a threat. Or I might see the cows earlier on, but although I've got a map, I'm not familiar with the area, and you're forever told to "stick to the path." So then what am I to do? Like I said, I have climbed over walls and fences, with my dogs, to stick to the route as best as I could, without endangering my life. Is that so unreasonable? You take the risk, or you go back the way you came. Although it would be polite and excellent practice for the farmer to put up a notice, that wouldn't help you if you've already walked 8 miles and don't want to go back : the farmer is hardly going to put up a sign at the start of your route, nor does he know where you are going so he may not be able to indicate how you could get there. Most farmers are not going to deliberately put dangerous animals where they will incur an expensive legal liability, if they have a choice - but the thing is, they are animals, large, powerful animals - and that means they are intrinsically unreliable, in the same way that the sea is intrinsically dangerous and unreliable. Dogwalkers are not the people who are most at risk from cows. The people who are by far the most likely to be killed by them are the people that work with them, if you look at the statistics. I appreciate that one cannot always be sure where they are in a field - I've been caught that way myself, if you look back at my previous post - but there are so many places where it would be simply impossible to signpost the presence of cows because they and the people are just all swilling around in a large area. I have lived most of my life in areas where this is the case. You get used to it. The thing about building sites is that they are places where access has to be restricted, and where authorised people are coming and going only through specific entrance points. My point about the sea, annoyingly lightly phrased though it may be, was trying to point out that there are many dangers to which this does not apply. There are many places where there are cows and horses, but no firm borders: commons, moors, country parks. Cows don't only occur in fields with gates and fixed routes across them from which no-one should deviate. I believe that any campaign that tried to get farmers to keep cows off footpaths due to the risk to dog and dogwalkers would end up with the banning of dogs from all areas where cows are, or might be. I suspect that those that don't think their dogs would get out of the way of cows on the rampage may be underestimating their dogs. Neither of mine are exactly traditional livestock dogs (greyhound and lurcher) and I doubt Mollydog even saw a cow before she was about 5 - but they both know that if a cow or a horse starts looking pushy, it makes sense to get well clear. Of course, there are always exceptions, but it's difficult to misinterpret the approach of giant scary pounding hooves. Edited June 22, 2009 by cycas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krusewalker Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 good post, well stated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackmagic Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 The comment from the NFU tonight was to 'let the dogs loose and hope that they didn't go behind the owner for protection.' We have cows in the fields around us and my dalmatian lunges and barks ) if he was allowed) at them when we walk along the road, if they stand and stare at him, so I don't think he would run away. My other dog puts me between him and the cows when we pass them, so that is what he is likely to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackmagic Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 You take the risk, or you go back the way you came. That may have been what the poor woman was doing. Going back the way you came doesn't stop the cows coming after you. in the same way that the sea is intrinsically dangerous and unreliable. We do get warning flags and signs when bathing is not safe. There are warning signs to keep away from cliff edges in some places. I appreciate that one cannot always be sure where they are in a field - I've been caught that way myself, if you look back at my previous post - but there are so many places where it would be simply impossible to signpost the presence of cows because they and the people are just all swilling around in a large area. I have lived most of my life in areas where this is the case. You get used to it. But visitors to an area are not used to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesB Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 While I'm sorry to read about this woman's tragic death I mainly agree with Victoria, we can't legislate for everything, or signpost everything. Things like bathing in the sea are intrinsically dangerous, flags or no flags. And legislation would probably mean radically changing the law of the land when it comes to public rights of way - the CROW act was quite far enough in the wrong direction in my opinion. Even if it was the law, I just can't see farmers putting up signs every time they decide to move their cattle from field to field. And if they put signs up in every field saying 'there may be cows in this field' then how would walkers know when there really 'were' cows in that field. I'm fairly used to being around cattle but inadvertently ended up in a field of bullocks (on a footpath) recently, and I was seriously worried when they all came cantering over for a close look at us and the dogs. We were about half way across the field before we realised we were sharing it with cattle and it was a shorter route to carry on than turn back. But I don't blame the owner of the land, we took a risk and we were very lucky this time. My heart was pounding when we finally got out though and I will be a lot more cautious when I'm walking in strange fields in future. When we were on holiday in Iceland earlier this year we stopped above a gigantic waterfall and as we all got off the bus and prepared to walk gingerly down the wooden steps in the sleet and poor visibility, the guide said 'This waterfall is XX,000 feet high. The only thing standing between you and death is common sense." Just a random observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Rotties Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 For goodness sake, we have cows in the country side, thats where they live. I feel for the poor woman and her family for a very tragic death. Sometimes I do think I live in a different world to everyone else, we cant buy a puppy and now farmers shouldn't have cows in fields Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owl Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 This whole question is a sore point with me and brings back a frightening memory. About 15 yrs ago I was walking on NT land near Newquay. It was a popular area with several footpaths crossing some fields. I had with me my big puli Mojo, who had spent his first 10 months on a mixed farm and was steady with all stock. Nevertheless I always avoided fields with cattle, and this time I was caught by surprise as I thought the field was empty. About 80 bullocks appeared over the crest of a hill and came galloping down at us full pelt. Mindful of what I had always been taught, I let Mojo off knowing that he was fast, bold and competent to deal with the situation. I expected him to run a semi circle with bullocks in pursuit and join me at the gate. Instead, he rounded up the lot and penned them in the corner of the field, then sat nicely to await further orders. He didn't push them once they were herded together, but came to my call. All would have been well except that the tenant farmer came racing down on his tractor. He threw stones at Mojo to drive him away from me, but Mojo although scared was able to dodge them and get to me. I bent down to put him on lead and the farmer started to thump and smack me very hard on the arms and shoulders, which didn't help. I completely ignored him because if I had showed fear or distress Mojo would have defended me and nipped the farmer. My refusal to take any notice made the farmer angrier and he hit me harder. We got out of the field and into the car and away home, where I rang the NT warden who I already knew. By that time the warden had been told by the farmer that I had allowed my dog to chase the cattle and I had been unable to catch him because he was completely out of control. I went and talked to the warden, who did not believe that the bullocks had been any danger to me and said I should have kept Mojo on lead because they were just curious and I should not have panicked. He said that cows had broken gates and sheep had gone over the cliff because of harrassment by dogs. I sympathised but pointed out that Mojo had put the cattle in a safe area and then backed off, and it was the farmer who prevented him from coming to me. He had no intention to harm them. Then I asked him if he supported the actions of the farmer in hitting me, and he was astounded. Naturally it had not been mentioned. The upshot was an agreement that neither side would take action against the other if he reprimanded the farmer for the assault and I agreed to keep out of the field when cattle were in. A local farmer who knew me and Mojo said I had acted correctly in my own safety, and also said those particular cattle were a stroppy bunch. He cheered me up by inviting us to help him the next time he had a herd to move as he wanted to see a puli in action. Too many people have been killed or injured by cattle on footpaths. I know the people who work with cattle are most at risk, but that doesn't alter the fact. I don't want cattle to be bothered and upset either, but when it's a choice between cattle getting upset or me being flattened, I vote for self-preservation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helly Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 For those people objecting to cows being kept in a natural environment, ie a field, the alternative is intensively farmed cows who live indoors 24/7. I know many of you dont eat them and will immediately argue we shouldnt keep them at all, but we do... and i want to see cows running naturally around the countryside during their life. Its very sad that this woman has died, but cows do kill people sometimes. So do cars of course, and how many people drive to the countryside to walk their dogs and object to the cows who live there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owl Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 I don't think anyone is suggesting there should be no cows in the countryside. The question is how to stop fatalities. One could have a ban on dogs on footpaths crossing fields, but that isn't going to be popular either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happylittlegreensquirrel Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 how awful for the woman and her family I never knew Cows were so unsettled by dogs and have learnt a lot from this thread , I am sure this ladies tragic death will be a lesson to many people like myself I have always avoided livestock generally on walks as Holly thinks Sheeps are dreadfully chaotic and need re arranging and she is terrified of horses and I am sure cows would equally scare her ( and she barks at scary things ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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