Rudi Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 Oh so true. I have just read on another list about a woman who spoke to people on the Cav health stand at Crufts. She had bought a pup that had to be pts at 11 months because its pain from SM became uncontrollable. She wanted to know where she could get another puppy who would be SM free. They discussed the options with her at great length and later sent her details of a breeder who lived in the same town and bred from scanned and SM free dogs and was planning a litter later this year. However the woman saw an advert in the local paper, visited the breeder a few miles away, who says she's never heard of SM so of course her dogs can't have it, and bought a puppy. What does it take to get through to people? I don't know what it takes. I know a couple who had a wonderful rottie, he had such a fabulous temperament but by the age of six months his back end had started to go due to him having poor hips. Following on from this both his cruciates went, one after the other and they were operated on. Then the feeling went from his whole rear end and they tried all they could and he was eventually PTS at about 3 years of age in his home with them around him. It broke their hearts. After a while they decided to have another rottie puppy and they did their research and went to an established breeder who hip and elbow scores and bought home a lovely chap. I was absolutely flabbergasted to the point where I couldn't even put on a polite face when I saw them next only to find that they'd bought another rottie puppy - but got him from the local paper from unscored parents. All that heartache and yet they may have set themselves up for it again. Obviously there's no guarantees with the puppy from the scored parents but at least it was heading in the right direction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReikiAnge Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 I don't know what it takes. I know a couple who had a wonderful rottie, he had such a fabulous temperament but by the age of six months his back end had started to go due to him having poor hips. Following on from this both his cruciates went, one after the other and they were operated on. Then the feeling went from his whole rear end and they tried all they could and he was eventually PTS at about 3 years of age in his home with them around him. It broke their hearts. After a while they decided to have another rottie puppy and they did their research and went to an established breeder who hip and elbow scores and bought home a lovely chap. I was absolutely flabbergasted to the point where I couldn't even put on a polite face when I saw them next only to find that they'd bought another rottie puppy - but got him from the local paper from unscored parents. All that heartache and yet they may have set themselves up for it again. Obviously there's no guarantees with the puppy from the scored parents but at least it was heading in the right direction I don't understand people like that either Not only are they setting themselves up for further potential heartache (though I hope that's not the case) they are also lining the pockets of such breeders and encouraging them to continue breeding in this way. I know a lot of lab pup owners buy puppies without researching the breed first - and as has been pointed out, it's very easy to find the information on health tests online now, which is something that wouldn't have been possible not so long ago. However as in the case you've mentioned, others go ahead and buy anyway, even when they are armed with all the info. Just to save a hundred quid or because they're too impatient to wait, it would seem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happylittlegreensquirrel Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 I know a lot of lab pup owners buy puppies without researching the breed first - and as has been pointed out, it's very easy to find the information on health tests online now, which is something that wouldn't have been possible not so long ago. However as in the case you've mentioned, others go ahead and buy anyway, even when they are armed with all the info. Just to save a hundred quid or because they're too impatient to wait, it would seem maybe those people think if a breeder has KC registered ( or what ever the wording is ) that means they are getting the best advice etc from the breeder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycas Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 (edited) I suppose the avoiding the heartbreak thing is not so very important to many people, or nobody would adopt rescue dogs with no background or, worse, from obvious puppy farming antecedants. Nobody wants an ill dog, but most people are prepared to take some risks over it. The lining the pockets of the baddies thing is a very good point, but I suppose it is easy for many people be tempted to take a risk or break a rule, because everyone else does it, or because it's just the once, or because does it really make a difference if it's just us making a stand, or because it will *probably* be OK, or because it's so much more convenient... I bet most people have broken rules or taken risks for those sorts of crap reasons before now, I have. This is why there is such careful regulation on things like food production and manufacturing: no matter how obvious it is that something is broken or dangerous, some damn fool will buy it if it's available. You simply can't rely on 'buyer beware' to eliminate bad or unethical products or services, particularly when choosing a good product requires considerable research and expertise, and apparently you can't even trust what appears to be the industry body, or the local experts on the topic. Perhaps more so nowadays when everything is plastered in warnings and certificates: I think there is a strong tendency for people to assume that if something is really bad, then 'it wouldn't be allowed'. Edited August 20, 2008 by cycas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple_mog Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 This is why there is such careful regulation on things like food production and manufacturing: no matter how obvious it is that something is broken or dangerous, some damn fool will buy it if it's available. You simply can't rely on 'buyer beware' to eliminate bad or unethical products or services, particularly when choosing a good product requires considerable research and expertise, and apparently you can't even trust what appears to be the industry body, or the local experts on the topic. Perhaps more so nowadays when everything is plastered in warnings and certificates: I think there is a strong tendency for people to assume that if something is really bad, then 'it wouldn't be allowed'. Absolutely - I was discussing the programme on MSN with a non-dog friend and they were amazed, having assumed that surely Crufts was the best of the best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kola Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 Looking at the breed standard for the GSD - for a start the picture is of a dog with a level top line and the description of the back end mentions 'effortless forward propulsion' and and strong hocks. The breeder they interviewed swore blind that the roach-backed dogs in the ring fully met the breed standard, but how could they? GSD breed standard I can't understand it either, what shocked me the most was the shepherds being shown, their back legs and a comment something about walking or looking like 'frogs', they looked deformed, their back ends didn't look like legs, the dogs actually looked like they should have their back legs strapped into a cart on wheels to help them walk, it brought me to tears to see that, these people should be prosecuted for cruelty Amanda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudi Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 I suppose the avoiding the heartbreak thing is not so very important to many people, or nobody would adopt rescue dogs with no background or, worse, from obvious puppy farming antecedants. Nobody wants an ill dog, but most people are prepared to take some risks over it. True, I hadn't thought of it like that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReikiAnge Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 maybe those people think if a breeder has KC registered ( or what ever the wording is ) that means they are getting the best advice etc from the breeder I'm sure in many cases that's absolutely true - that people see the KC registration on an ad and assume the pups are good quality, from health tested parents (where relevant) with good results. Breeders can be very good at fobbing people off and making up reasons for things too I gather. This is why I think the KC would do well to introduce some other criteria, such as good health test results, for obtaining KC registration, as it would do more to separate the "good" from the "bad". It's those that do the research and then go to the nearest/cheapest/quickest litter that annoy me! I suppose the avoiding the heartbreak thing is not so very important to many people, or nobody would adopt rescue dogs with no background or, worse, from obvious puppy farming antecedants. Nobody wants an ill dog, but most people are prepared to take some risks over it. Yes that's true, but I don't have a problem with people taking a risk over a dog's health when adopting a dog from rescue (I've done it) - but they are not lining the pockets of a bad breeder and encouraging them to keep churning out puppies. Obviously I don't want dogs from bad breeders to end up suffering either, I just wish people would stop buying from the places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackmagic Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 I think many people don't look at the wider picture. They live in their own little bubble and it won't happen to them. On a local forum, this week, it was reported that four 12 week old lab pups were taken to the vet to be pts because they couldn't sell them. The bitches in the litter had been sold ( no surprise there) but not the dogs. It was hoped that telling this would make people think before breeding from their bitch, as the credit crunch was affecting pup sales. The next day there was a post from someone looking for a stud dog as she wanted to 'have a litter' from her lab bitch. PS the pups were not pts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melp Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 It was an absolutely appalling display of arrogance, cruelty and narrow-mindedness. Hear hear. Sadly the KC display this sort of narrow mindedness over BSL as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 i have and there is alot of research going to to help stop the condition spreading. it is painful but there ARE responsible people out there breeding the dogs, in a moment i am going to pm you the addres of a cavalier forum where you will be able to find help in finding a healthy dog. Thanks for that I'm honestly not planning on doglet number 3 yet though But I really would love a cavvie one day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 The breed standard doesn't call for the culling of puppies itself http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/36 that was the Rhodesian Ridgeback Club's own rules which were ratified by the KC and then when attention was drawn to them, the KC hurriedly backed away and played dumb. Actually the KC are pretty dumb as far as internal admin is concerned. I'm quite prepared to believe that they ratified the breed club rules without even reading them. As for Ronnie Irving - the dog world could do a lot worse than him in charge of the KC. He's far from perfect but he seems to understand the real world better than many of his dinosaur colleagues at the KC. He does have a very difficult job balancing all the vested interests and I do think he is trying in his own way to bring the KC into the 20th century, if not the 21st. He may go about it the wrong way or more slowly and carefully than many of us would like to see, but he must be in a vulnerable position. Upset too many people and who knows who would replace him? Now Jeff Sampson the KC vet - he should be disposed of as quickly as possible. This is the guy who ignored the weight of opinion of behaviourists and independent vets as to the value of socialisation versus health risks and persuaded the KC to reject a move to allow pups under 4 months to tag along at shows. I'm please to say that the rule is widely ignored at agility shows at least. Pam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciren Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 Thanks for that I'm honestly not planning on doglet number 3 yet though But I really would love a cavvie one day # i'm totally biased as i am in love with the breed. so good luck when you do get one i must admit the show opened my eyes and i actually felt sad that i would no longer watch crufts with interest. i am trying to contact Caron Fowler in the hope i can do something to help. its not just for cav's as somebody else has said its all dog's with a domed head that can have the problem. also its a place to start once that is sorted we can start working through the other breeds. also when i saw the GSD i thought he looked like he had bad legs, i am horrified that it is suposed a requirement of the breed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingrid Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 Just wondering if anyone knows if Pedigree foods got wind of the programme and that's why they withdrew sponsership of dog shows last week ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathyw Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 Shame on me I can't remember which dog it was but they showed how the breed looked 50 years ago and then today - the dog hadlengthened (not Daccies) but also it's legs had shortened bu half and actually looked like pigs trotters to me and Ray. The EBT made me weep because of what had happen to it's skull in the name of winning shows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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