Kim Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 (edited) Whether you are training children, horses, dogs etc, the priciples are the same but are adapted to what is being taught and to whom. Take ice skating, they all start of with the figures, bad ones can loose the competition, then once they have these, they move on to another discipline, all very different but have the same priciples. In my experience it's a whole different ball game training a Rottweiler and training even a GSD, while the same thing can be taught to all and they will all do it and ace it, I have found that there is a vastly different way of training the same thing to the two different breeds.. I'm using them as examples at they were the two breeds I have used for training. Edited January 5, 2008 by Kim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSDFan Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 In my experience it's a whole different ball game training a Rottweiler and training even a GSD, while the same thing can be taught to all and they will all do it and ace it, I have found that there is a vastly different way of training the same thing to the two different breeds.. I'm using them as examples at they were the two breeds I have used for training. I agree Kim, there are big differences between training the two. There are even more differences between others breeds - eg GSD's and JRT's. It's one thing I noticed about the KC accredited trainer scheme. Most of those trainers are specialist in WT's, Obedience or Agility, therefore they will be most used to dealing with BC's with the occasional GSD, Rott or Malinois thrown in. but I do know about GSDs and would say they are one of the easiest to train if you know how to handle them, but they do pick up bad habits just as quickly Shhhhhhhhhhhh - will you not keep saying that Lots of unsuitable people over the years have met my GSD's and decided they would like one like mine cos they are really well trained I keep telling folks they are really hard to train in the hope it puts them off, and if it doesn't then maybe they are fit to have one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mop Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 In my experience it's a whole different ball game training a Rottweiler and training even a GSD, while the same thing can be taught to all and they will all do it and ace it, I have found that there is a vastly different way of training the same thing to the two different breeds.. I'm using them as examples at they were the two breeds I have used for training. Of course they are different, but no matter what you train, the principles are the same. You may train a different way for different breeds, terriers and Lurchers you need to think outside the box, but the principles are the same. We teach by putting them into a position were they succeed, but how you get them into that position is different for every dog. Some work for praise, others treats, and other toys, but the principles are the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanrossscot Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 .......It's one thing I noticed about the KC accredited trainer scheme. Most of those trainers are specialist in WT's, Obedience or Agility, therefore they will be most used to dealing with BC's with the occasional GSD, Rott or Malinois thrown in....... Well I think my trainer is on this scheme, she does compete in Obedience but is also a behaviourist and succesfully works with all sizes/breeds & crosses. A trainer worth their salt will pick up knowledge of all types. Di has had everything from Chi's to DDBordeuax in her classes and treats them all individually based on their nature and also the owners abilities/nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSDFan Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 A trainer worth their salt will pick up knowledge of all types. Di has had everything from Chi's to DDBordeuax in her classes and treats them all individually based on their nature and also the owners abilities/nature. I agree, good trainers will, although I do think that most trainers are better with some breeds, and types of owner, than with other breeds Lets assume for a moment that training has become a legal requirement. How does Joe Public, who has never had anything to do with training and is now being made to, decide who is a good trainer. Even assuming that Joe Public cares and isn't just going cos he has to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rip and cap Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 Why should it only be made compulsory for certain breeds?? I'm sorry do we not have a Deed not Breed campaign going on? The idea is to punish the DEED not the breed, so why should I as a Rottweiler owner be made to do compulsory training and Mr Joe Bloggs next door who does not have a Rott can have the most ill manner anti social dog on the street? My Rott's are very well training dog ( by me BTW) so why should I be penalised because of my choice of breed type, not the best idea I think...... Please take note of my previous comment. My view is bearing in mind our thick and dictating government too. They are not going to just accept "well i had a pitbull and it never bit any body". or after a certain breed attack "i've got that breed of dog dog which is a total softie. Blame the owner." They are in a similar situation to John Majors goverrnment were in 1991. Desperate for votes. They don't get those votes and they loose out on a very, very good salary and very, very good perks. My suggestions/comments all along have not been right from wrong but realistic suggestions considering our government situation and attitude. If The Sun kicks up a stink and suggests another breed being banned. Joe public the sun reader will not see any other options and believe this is the right solution. The government will quickly ban this breed to show Joe public they are doing some thing about the attacks as they want Joe public to vote for them. Didn't this happen in 1991? I remember the pit bull with its jaws open and the bit on the jaw lock etc in one of the papers. I know many people including dog lovers who don't like the pit bull due to all the negative press from that time. There is not many people out there who would like to see bsl removed more than my self. But... like i've said the government are not going to admit their mistakes just like that and drop bsl all together. The only chance of that is knocking one brick out at a time hoping eventually the wall falls down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingrid Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 Shhhhhhhhhhhh - will you not keep saying that Sorry, but ....................................... There is not many people out there who would like to see bsl removed more than my self. But... like i've said the government are not going to admit their mistakes just like that and drop bsl all together. The only chance of that is knocking one brick out at a time hoping eventually the wall falls down. But in the meantime we don't want to see any more restrictions added just because of breed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSDFan Posted January 6, 2008 Report Share Posted January 6, 2008 There is not many people out there who would like to see bsl removed more than my self. But... like i've said the government are not going to admit their mistakes just like that and drop bsl all together. The only chance of that is knocking one brick out at a time hoping eventually the wall falls down. We must fight BSL. In that fight there is no room for even suggesting that we are prepared to allow some breeds to be discriminated against in any way. Once we agree to that we agree that BSL is right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kim Posted January 6, 2008 Report Share Posted January 6, 2008 But... like i've said the government are not going to admit their mistakes just like that and drop bsl all together. The only chance of that is knocking one brick out at a time hoping eventually the wall falls down. So your solution is to sacrifice a few breeds to save the rest??? Well can I just say I own two Rottweilers and a GSD and I am saddened to think that yet again a person who "loves" dogs seem as at ease killing dogs to save others, because I can tell you now if I didn't own Rotts's or GSD's I would own a ABT,SBT or a Cane Corso or a Perro de Presa Canario, so yeah go for it Rip and Cap lets kill all breeds the goverment don't like and all will be well in the world, well those people who are heart broken at losing their soul mates, well what does it matter??? Sure have we not sorted the problem????????????????? Yeah think on What bred will be next????????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumpole Posted January 6, 2008 Report Share Posted January 6, 2008 its good to debate these things especially when owners of dogs not under threat feel as passionately as rip and cap, because should an alternative proposal be brought forward it will affect them too my personal views are that in most of the attack cases it is not the training of the dog that is the problem who says that any of the dogs involved in attacks are untrained they may all be able to sit beautifully have great recall even be perfect agility dogs, it doesnt make a jot of difference if their owners have no common sense or the dogs are left alone to amuse themselves or unsupervised with little ones yes dogs should be trained but the level of that training does not matter half as much as socialising your dog with the things it will encounter in everyday life. education should be aimed at the owners and information should be widely available to the general public and particularly parents. i have lost count of the number of people i have heard say ooh come away from that dog or it will bite you that in my opinion is wrong and could lead to children being fearful and therefore nervous around dogs for life, yes by all means tell them not to approach dogs they are not familiar with or without supervision and suggest that dogs dont always understand what we humans mean especially little ones but not it WILL bite you. i have also seen many times a child that has screamed and thrown its arms round the legs of its mother as i walk past with my perfectly controlled dog, and i recently turned down a home for a staffie puppy when after a successful homecheck the child came along with parents to meet their new puppy and as soon as she came through the door and the puppy ran over she screamed and kicked out at the pup. i understandably was unimpressed and even more so when her mother said "oh that will be my fault i told her it would bite her educating people in my mind is far more important than a superbly trained dog i much prefer a settled unflappable dog thats a bit dim than a well trained dog that lives with people who trust their dog with their kids because it does tricks it is imho people training that we need keep the debate going many people have ideas and its good to have others to question them, i like the idea of a dog driving licence but can see that dogs are not as obvious as cars and there could be problems thanks to i think cycas we need the negatives as well as positives, if that had happened in 1991 and people pointing out the problems with the dda had been listened to we would not be in this situation now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReikiAnge Posted January 6, 2008 Report Share Posted January 6, 2008 So your solution is to sacrifice a few breeds to save the rest??? Well can I just say I own two Rottweilers and a GSD and I am saddened to think that yet again a person who "loves" dogs seem as at ease killing dogs to save others, because I can tell you now if I didn't own Rotts's or GSD's I would own a ABT,SBT or a Cane Corso or a Perro de Presa Canario, so yeah go for it Rip and Cap lets kill all breeds the goverment don't like and all will be well in the world, well those people who are heart broken at losing their soul mates, well what does it matter??? Sure have we not sorted the problem????????????????? Yeah think on What bred will be next????????????? I don't agree with establishing training classes/rules for certain breeds - if we are looking to fight BSL and improve dog ower responsibility and reduce the chance of the recent tragedy repeating itself, then I firmly believe we need to address this with all dog owners, regardless of the breed. However I haven't once seen Rip and Cap say anywhere that he is happy for any dogs to be killed, let alone an entire breed wiped out. From reading his posts in this section, he is opposed to BSL like the rest of us and is supportive of DNB I don't agree with the suggestion, but I understood he was suggesting that *rather* than an entire breed such as the rottie be added to the DDA a a banned breed, that there be certain things such as training set up to enable people to keep the breed responsibly. In the current climate of the media calling for rotties to be banned and with people wanting rid of their previously wonderful dogs, I thought he was trying to suggest an alternative to more breeds being banned. As I said above, I don't personally agree with certain breeds being targeted for training/extra restrictions/rules etc. because to me that is still a form of BSL, even though not as severe as having the dogs killed, but I haven't seen anywhere that he would be happy for even one single dog to be killed because he/she was of a certain breed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rip and cap Posted January 6, 2008 Report Share Posted January 6, 2008 Either i have not explained my self properly or a few of you have miss understood. At the end of the day the government lay the law. They are not going to drop bsl all together because that would be like them saying "we have searced Iraq top to bottom, east to west and not found any weapons of mass destruction. We are bringing our troops home tomorrow." (hundreds of troops dead, tens of thousands of civilians dead and billions of pounds wasted). How stupid would this make them look after attacking them on fake dossiers for weapons of mass destruction. I share the same views as all of you and thats why i post on the forum. What i am trying to get across is, Our government might meet us half way where there is still a form of relaxed bsl in place together with our ideas but THEY ARE NOT going to drop bsl all together just yet. Dropping bsl all together would make them look like the idiots they are. (just like my comment above on Iraq). If they dropped bsl they would be massively criticised for all the innocent dogs that have been slaughtered through bsl. They are not going to allow that. I completely agree with rumpoles comment on educating owners. This is the direction i have been pointing in. The classes i have mentioned i am pointing in the direction of educating the owner on the points you have mentioned and many, many more. So some one agrees with part of my idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rip and cap Posted January 6, 2008 Report Share Posted January 6, 2008 I don't agree with establishing training classes/rules for certain breeds - if we are looking to fight BSL and improve dog ower responsibility and reduce the chance of the recent tragedy repeating itself, then I firmly believe we need to address this with all dog owners, regardless of the breed. However I haven't once seen Rip and Cap say anywhere that he is happy for any dogs to be killed, let alone an entire breed wiped out. From reading his posts in this section, he is opposed to BSL like the rest of us and is supportive of DNB I don't agree with the suggestion, but I understood he was suggesting that *rather* than an entire breed such as the rottie be added to the DDA a a banned breed, that there be certain things such as training set up to enable people to keep the breed responsibly. In the current climate of the media calling for rotties to be banned and with people wanting rid of their previously wonderful dogs, I thought he was trying to suggest an alternative to more breeds being banned. As I said above, I don't personally agree with certain breeds being targeted for training/extra restrictions/rules etc. because to me that is still a form of BSL, even though not as severe as having the dogs killed, but I haven't seen anywhere that he would be happy for even one single dog to be killed because he/she was of a certain breed Thank you, i think you understand my view. My last post explains a little bit more. I am trying to say exactly what you have said by there. If the government want to hit another breed with bsl i would rather see a system in which would allow responsible owners to keep their dogs. Not a repeat of 1991 (and ever since) where thousands of responsible owners are affected and thousands of dogs destroyed for the way they look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
celeste Posted January 6, 2008 Report Share Posted January 6, 2008 As I think, someone else previously mentioned, this could be tackled from the source, the breeders, ok it wouldn't be fool proof, but perhaps it would go some way to address the situation if the K C brought in rules that if you wanted to breed ,the dogs would have to have been temprement tested, no test pass and the pups couldn't be KC registered, yes it would be difficult to get going but once it was up and running it would only take a few years before it was established, this rule would apply to all breeds, of course you would still have numpty owners who shouldn't have a dog in the first place, and it's by no means an assurance that any dog would be of sound temprement but perhaps it would be a start, on a separate note I'd also like to see the same sort of thing brought in for heritable defects where there is a test available, then perhaps a pedigree would be an indication of quality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingrid Posted January 6, 2008 Report Share Posted January 6, 2008 Unfortunately not all breeders use KC and certainly not the puppy farmers, to get round it the Dog Lovers Regirstration to give papers to mass produced dogs !! If I'm perfectly honest I would rather the KC were kept out of it, they do have the power to make things stricter for breeders but don't seem to want too if it means they lose income, just my impression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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