cycas Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 (edited) I agree with you on lots of your points Cycas, but..........it seems that something has to happen to try and prevent silly people placing more daft restrictions on breeds etc., so we have to begin somewhere. Like I said, I've no doubt that there will be many problems along the way, but if people are determined, then it (or something like it), could work. I wonder what people's views were when it was announced that you had to have a licence to be able to drive, and then (shock, horror), you also had to pass a test to show you were capable of driving ( oh, I can hear my step-dad going on about it as I type)! I'm sure they did, but the thing is that cars are things that regularly kill people. It's easy to make an argument that people must be trained and licenced to use them. Even with our current carefully licenced and regulated system, cars kill and injure hugely more people than our totally unregulated dogs do. I appreciate that even one Ellie Lawrenson is a tragedy, and that BSL is not the way to fix it, but I am just not sure a universal dog licencing scheme is a reasonable response. I think that we should be cautious about what we ask for. If enough people ask for a licencing scheme, we may well get one. I don't think it will be cheap, and dog owners will be expected to bear the full costs of it. I work with a number of comparatively tiny database systems for a living - nothing on anything like the scale of a system to track every dog in the UK, but I have just enough knowledge of what's involved with data-driven systems and government IT projects to understand that what is being proposed here is a pretty major enterprise. Just collecting all the data from the various existing microchip systems and putting them into a centralised form, and allowing people to access their records and change them would take some doing. You'd need some mechanism for allowing people to change their information without using the internet. I have a customer who has a call centre: every time a customer contacts them by phone, it costs them £5 (which is, of course, covered by the price of what they sell, but my point is that setting up the systems and letting people make changes to their records is an expensive thing to run). A licencing scheme would be preferable to a total ban on owning dogs - that would be cheap, and relatively easy to implement, but I'm sure nobody here wants that. Ingrid, licencing your new car was far from free. You pay road tax every year on your car, you also pay an enormous tax levy every time you put petrol into it- most of your petrol costs are tax. All of this pays for, among other things, the mighty force of the DVLA to keep records of all the cars in the UK, to manage them and provide access to them and change them when the car is sold. I appreciate that you don't have to tax or fuel a car to own one, but effectively you have to pay these fees if you are going to use your car, and the money from the majority covers the small number of people who keep their cars off road and never use them. Edited January 4, 2008 by cycas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melp Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 Got a pm saying someone wanted a response from me? I've not read this thread yet sorry so have no idea who/what/where etc. We have adjourned cases to deal with today and prepping to do for appeals next week. When those things are sorted I'll read this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rip and cap Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 I totally agree on the socialising bit and think this is some thing that should be included in the owner training (as well as advised in the dog training). Many, especially new owners don't know how important socialising is and should be educated on the importance of socialising before their purchase. Good luck to all the dogs and their owners up in court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melp Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 Have now read the thread. Rip N Cap I know you asked for my opinion but as I'm not the only person in DNB I think it would be unfair, my opinion may not necessarily be that of the group as a whole. I'll post a link to this thread in DNB forum and ask everyones opinion but I think the General dog owning public ar more important here than any group, whether that be the KC, dnb or whoever. The Isle of Man are currently revising their dog laws. DNB/BBAS have had some involvement and discussion with them concerning this. I think Melf has their proposals [or can get hold of a copy] The KC and the NDWA also have proposals, copies of which I have on file [also on their respective websites I beleive] I'll get them and post them on a new thread. A lot of them DNB agree with, some we don't but as dog owners we'll ALL have opinions on what will and won't work. Be back shortly I'll get them and post them on a new thread. A lot of them DNB agree with, some we don't but as dog owners we'll ALL have opinions on what will and won't work. Be back shortly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSDFan Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 I totally agree on the socialising bit and think this is some thing that should be included in the owner training (as well as advised in the dog training). Many, especially new owners don't know how important socialising is and should be educated on the importance of socialising before their purchase. Good luck to all the dogs and their owners up in court. Lastly on the subject of training, who would decide which methods should be taught at classes? How would that be decided ? Which trainers would be deemed suitable to teach people ? Who would decide that ? I'd be interested in your thoughts on my above comment. Also I'd be interested to know where you think all the dog trainers/classes are suddenly going to materialise from ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingrid Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 I can answer thsat Jackie, people out to make a fast buck who probably know diddly squat inn reality, we already have a few of them in this area and if the good classes overflowed they'd get their chance to destroy a few more dogs. The only really good trainers I have come across were my agility club with Zen, who got agitated when new dogs arrived but soon settled down in the class. The trainers comment was always to ignore him he was ok really Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rip and cap Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 I'd be interested in your thoughts on my above comment. Also I'd be interested to know where you think all the dog trainers/classes are suddenly going to materialise from ? Perhaps centralised at the kennel club? The kennel club could put together these lessons and gather what imfomation should be included. They could recruit and train their nominated trainers (approx 5). These few trainers could then train people wishing to become these dog assesors (what information to give, how to prepare the lessons etc, self funded by the individuals). Just a suggestion mind. Please bear in mind that as with any job, all recruits should have several years experience of dog ownerships and selected by cv, what handling experience they have had etc. I don't always give the best suggestions. Any one else with any more suggestions or their own views? My view is bearing in mind our thick and dictating government too. They are not going to just accept "well i had a pitbull and it never bit any body". or after a certain breed attack "i've got that breed of dog dog which is a total softie. Blame the owner." They are in a similar situation to John Majors goverrnment were in 1991. Desperate for votes. They don't get those votes and they loose out on a very, very good salary and very, very good perks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackmagic Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 Perhaps centralised at the kennel club? The kennel club could put together these lessons and gather what imfomation should be included. They could recruit and train their nominated trainers (approx 5). These few trainers could then train people wishing to become these dog assesors (what information to give, how to prepare the lessons etc, self funded by the individuals). Just a suggestion mind. Please bear in mind that as with any job, all recruits should have several years experience of dog ownerships and selected by cv, what handling experience they have had etc. The Kennel Club already have such a scheme http://www.obedienceuk.com/news/news_item.asp?NewsID=134 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rip and cap Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 The Kennel Club already have such a scheme http://www.obedienceuk.com/news/news_item.asp?NewsID=134 Thanks for link, thats some thing i was not aware of. Not read it fully but perhaps a few ammendments and made compulsory for certain breeds...........And perhaps if proved successful.........BSL relaxed. (Instead of breeds being banned and wiped out. Owners could be made to attend these courses/classes). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kim Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 (edited) Thanks for link, thats some thing i was not aware of. Not read it fully but perhaps a few ammendments and made compulsory for certain breeds...........And perhaps if proved successful.........BSL relaxed. (Instead of breeds being banned and wiped out. Owners could be made to attend these courses/classes). Why should it only be made compulsory for certain breeds?? I'm sorry do we not have a Deed not Breed campaign going on? The idea is to punish the DEED not the breed, so why should I as a Rottweiler owner be made to do compulsory training and Mr Joe Bloggs next door who does not have a Rott can have the most ill manner anti social dog on the street? My Rott's are very well training dog ( by me BTW) so why should I be penalised because of my choice of breed type, not the best idea I think...... Edited January 5, 2008 by Kim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melp Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 Agree with Kim there. Any legislation which affectes only certain breeds is breed specific. Would not support anything like that. I do think people should be aware of their pets capacity to cause damage though. Dennis although considered a large breed would undoubtedly cause less damage [i'm talking about a single bite here not an attack] than Charley who is much smaller but very much stronger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSDFan Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 The Kennel Club already have such a scheme http://www.obedienceuk.com/news/news_item.asp?NewsID=134 Thanks for link, thats some thing i was not aware of. Not read it fully but perhaps a few ammendments and made compulsory for certain breeds...........And perhaps if proved successful.........BSL relaxed. (Instead of breeds being banned and wiped out. Owners could be made to attend these courses/classes). The KC scheme is really only an accreditation scheme. It's really like most accreditation schemes whereby provided you meet certain standards and pay your money you can join. There are quite a few trainers registered on it but it isn't in any way a training scheme for trainers. I would absolutely disagree with any training requirements which are breed specific. Finding sufficient trainers isn't simply a matter of training enough people. There are thousands of people who compete in one way or another with their dogs, this doesn't mean that they want to train other people and dogs, or that they are capable of doing it even if they want to. A lot of people who are excellent at training dogs aren't terribly good at training other people to handle dogs. I suspect that the majority of people who want to become handler trainers already are, a few new people start down that road every year. I don't believe it would be possible to significantly alter the number of available trainers. Even supposing that lots more trainers can be found, taught what they need to know and then given the experience to carry that out you still have to find suitable venues for the training. As many trainers don't have much in the way of land themselves this means land has to be found, it is often difficult to persuade either private land owners or the councils to rent out land for this purpose. Village halls can often be hired but for dog training purposes they really aren't very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kim Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 (edited) I totally agree with that Melp. I do believe owners need to be educated but I don't agree with responsible owners of certain breeds being penalised for having the breed they choose, don't get me wrong I would do anything to keep the dogs in danger safe, but I would not be happy responsible owners of these breeds having to walk on water while others out there did nothing... Also who is going to pick these trainers, how are they going to be trained it's a whole different ball game training a Rott than it is a GSD say??? Edited January 5, 2008 by Kim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mop Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 Whether you are training children, horses, dogs etc, the priciples are the same but are adapted to what is being taught and to whom. Take ice skating, they all start of with the figures, bad ones can loose the competition, then once they have these, they move on to another discipline, all very different but have the same priciples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingrid Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 Also who is going to pick these trainers, how are they going to be trained it's a whole different ball game training a Rott than it is a GSD say??? Never having owned a Rottie I can't comment on how to train them, but I do know about GSDs and would say they are one of the easiest to train if you know how to handle them, but they do pick up bad habits just as quickly, but I have owned several different breeds. So I would toally agree with you there !! I would say the only breed specific thing about these classes should be that they are segregated in to different needs of each breed or group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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