Abortion

[ReikiAnge]

But ultimately it can't be a man's choice until it's a man's risk and a man's responsibility, and it never is.

 

This sums up my thoughts rather well I think.

 

I do feel for men who don't get to have a part in the decision and see things going against their wishes, either way, but I just do not see how things can be any other way when it is women who get pregnant, carry the baby and give birth.

 

I would hope in a good relationship that the male partner would at least have his feelings considered but ultimately I believe it must be the woman's choice.

[KathyM]

From the other side I have a couple of male friends who have to pay maintenance but don't get to see their children and they would dearly love to, that I also don't think is fair, but I guess this is a different discussion, I'm not sure how a guy could have a choice, but I don't think it's fair that a girl can go ahead with a pregnancy and deny access to *their* child but still expect payments.

 

It is a different discussion yes, but seeing as it's been brought up a couple of times now I don't believe paying for a child means automatic access either. They're not paying for access, they're paying for care. I expect maintenance from my ex husband (not that they get it!) and yet I would never allow him access to my kids. One doesn't go hand in hand with the other.

[alexis]

I don't agree with abortion for social reasons which is why most abortions occur. As a dr you see quite a lot of young women having multiple abortions as they get pregnant and it is 'inconvenient' for them to have a baby and they use it as a form of contraception.I won't sign an abortion form as I feel that signing to say "the risk to a woman’s physical or mental health or the risk to her child(ren)’s physical or mental health will be greater if she continues with the pregnancy than if she ends it" to refer the patient for an abortion when often this isn't the case would mean I was lying. The quoted bit above is the abortion law stated on the form a dr has to sign.

In the case of physical problems then it's a different matter. I think it is too easy to get an abortion in the UK and women should have proper counselling before they do so. Many women I have spoken to do see it as any easy option and don't realise the lasting effects.

[BillyMalc]

I don't agree with abortion for social reasons which is why most abortions occur. As a dr you see quite a lot of young women having multiple abortions as they get pregnant and it is 'inconvenient' for them to have a baby and they use it as a form of contraception.I won't sign an abortion form as I feel that signing to say "the risk to a woman’s physical or mental health or the risk to her child(ren)’s physical or mental health will be greater if she continues with the pregnancy than if she ends it" to refer the patient for an abortion when often this isn't the case would mean I was lying. The quoted bit above is the abortion law stated on the form a dr has to sign.

In the case of physical problems then it's a different matter. I think it is too easy to get an abortion in the UK and women should have proper counselling before they do so. Many women I have spoken to do see it as any easy option and don't realise the lasting effects.

 

I take it you then don't consider the implications for the welfare of a child that is unwanted?

Some women will, as their pregnancy continues, come round to the idea of having a baby and end up being great mothers. I will never forget a childhood friend of mine though, who was psychologically abused by a mother who would tell her, on a near daily basis, that she wished that she (her daughter) had been stillborn and that the only reason that she (daughter) was there was because she, her mother, wasn't allowed an abortion

Of course, having a planned pregnancy or wanting a baby in the first place would not guarantee that the child will not run the risk of suffering abuse of any kind later, but surely if any case of abuse can be prevented by aborting a foetus that isn't wanted to begin with can only be a good thing? I'm frankly worried about this abortion law that leaves so much up to the dr's own opinion/integrity.

[sproggie14]

I won't sign an abortion form as I feel that signing to say "the risk to a woman’s physical or mental health or the risk to her child(ren)’s physical or mental health will be greater if she continues with the pregnancy than if she ends it" to refer the patient for an abortion when often this isn't the case would mean I was lying. The quoted bit above is the abortion law stated on the form a dr has to sign.

I agree with you on that I have to say. I think to have a doctor sign that is making a bit of a mockery of things. We should either accept that abortions are ok when it's not a case of the womans physical or mental health being at risk or not, not pretend that they all happen for this reason.

[alexis]

I take it you then don't consider the implications for the welfare of a child that is unwanted?

Some women will, as their pregnancy continues, come round to the idea of having a baby and end up being great mothers. I will never forget a childhood friend of mine though, who was psychologically abused by a mother who would tell her, on a near daily basis, that she wished that she (her daughter) had been stillborn and that the only reason that she (daughter) was there was because she, her mother, wasn't allowed an abortion

Of course, having a planned pregnancy or wanting a baby in the first place would not guarantee that the child will not run the risk of suffering abuse of any kind later, but surely if any case of abuse can be prevented by aborting a foetus that isn't wanted to begin with can only be a good thing? I'm frankly worried about this abortion law that leaves so much up to the dr's own opinion/integrity.

Talking to other doctors some patients want children but it's 'not convenient' at that time, therefore an abortion is more convenient. Around 40% of all pregnancies in the UK are unplanned. I don't sign the forms myself but have to point the patient in the direction of someone who will.

[scotslass]

I agree with Alexis that abortion is too easy and many women do regard it as a form of delayed contraception - I don't know what the answer is, though - the "pro" lobby say that these women will all go to back-street abortionists instead but I'm not convinced about that. Ok, long ago, some women might have gone to back-street abortionists, but the majority (in Scotland anyway) probably went on to have the baby, which was then raised in the family home, or adopted. Is adoption worse for the baby than abortion? Try asking some adopted people.

 

I have no religious axe to grind, by the way - but I fail to see why we should ask doctors and nurses to remove unwanted foetuses, and perhaps even assist in their deaths, when the whole purpose of their job is to save lives.

 

 

Some women will, as their pregnancy continues, come round to the idea of having a baby and end up being great mothers. I will never forget a childhood friend of mine though, who was psychologically abused by a mother who would tell her, on a near daily basis, that she wished that she (her daughter) had been stillborn and that the only reason that she (daughter) was there was because she, her mother, wasn't allowed an abortion

Of course, having a planned pregnancy or wanting a baby in the first place would not guarantee that the child will not run the risk of suffering abuse of any kind later, but surely if any case of abuse can be prevented by aborting a foetus that isn't wanted to begin with can only be a good thing? I'm frankly worried about this abortion law that leaves so much up to the dr's own opinion/integrity.

 

That first sentence (my italics) explains why many people are anti-abortion.

 

Many women have children whom they psychologically abuse, despite those children being initially 'wanted'. There's no way of guaranteeing that a mother will be adequate, whether she's reluctant from the outset, or just proves herself useless at a later stage.

 

We modern females have many rights. We have the right to use contraception, for one - and ok, occasionally it 'fails' - but is that why most abortions are carried out? Or is it that too many kids are getting drunk and having casual sex, in the knowledge that the NHS will pick up the pieces (literally) and remove their little problem for them? That doesn't mean that I think young girls deserve pregnancy and birth as some kind of come-uppance for their carelessness - I think, in fact, that the one kind of 'protection' girls need is the one they don't seem to be getting; the right to be protected from under-age drinking and under-age sex.

 

I understand why some women will need abortions. My heart goes out to them. My concern is that some youngsters think that the avoidance of pregnancy is no big deal; that if you get pregnant, the doctors will deal with it for you. To me, that underlines the irresponsibility which permeates much of modern Britain. Someone else (sex education teacher, usually ) is always to blame; someone else (doctor/nurse) will clean up.

[purple_mog]

just to throw another angle in - I am in favour of people making choices based on full information, reasoned moral judgement and in good conscience. So I guess that makes me pro-choice.

 

More specifically I am pro-choice for myself because I have no desire what-so-ever to have children. I always use contraception, and have once used the morning after pill at university when I wasn't sure. I would find it utterly heart-breaking to go through with an abortion at any stage, yet for now I feel sure that I would. If there was a way to permanently remove the option of getting pregnant that I could take, I'm pretty sure I would have taken it! I accept I *may* change my mind, therefore take all possible precautions. However most of the doctors and nurses I have discussed contraception with are disbelieveing that I don't want children, and there is no way I would be allowed to have a permanent procedure. Therefore abortion for me is the last option should I become pregnant.

[MissMagic]

I go against the majority, because I think 24 weeks is okay. It's always going to be something that gets argued over, but 24 weeks is the generally accepted "line" between a baby making it or not making it (I know there are exceptions, but at 24 weeks a baby is still unlikely to survive, but is at that point labelled "viable").

 

To be fair, I didn't know I was pregnant with Connie until I was 12 or 13 weeks. If I'd had doubts over a termination, I would've needed time to make a decision. Lowering the stage of pregnancy at which terminations are carried out only limits choice and forces women to carry unwanted children.

 

I'm with Kathy on this one, 12 weeks is not always enough time, it's too early to have a blanket 'no'.

 

No baby born under 24 weeks has to my knowledge ever survived, and a lot of the babies that do survive suffer brain hemorrhages and worse, yes you get the odd miracle but they are few and far between.

 

Also I don't think that forcing women to carry unwanted children is a good thing. There are thousands of children in need of parents already in the foster care system in this country, why forcibly add more?

Edited June 12, 2008 by MissMagic

[MissMagic]

Just to add to my post above:

 

I do however, worry as someone has mentioned above about people thinking of abortion as a form of contraception and a thing that makes underage or irresponsible sex 'OK'. Nothing to my mind makes those things acceptable. We need to teach our kids (and quite often adults!) to take responsibility for their actions and deal with the fall out. Just because some people think of that way though doesn't mean we should take away the choice of those people responsible enough to make it.

[Kats inc]

No baby born under 24 weeks has to my knowledge ever survived, and a lot of the babies that do survive suffer brain hemorrhages and worse, yes you get the odd miracle but they are few and far between.

 

Last figures done show 18% of babies born at 23 weeks gestation survived,those were figure for between 2000 and 2005.Below 23 weeks the liklihood of survival is very very poor.I have certainly looked after a baby born at 23 weeks who survived and did well with no major health concerns.She weighed just 860 grams at birth if I recall correctly.

[scotslass]

I've been thinking more about this so-called 'judging' of women who have abortions, and how some posters feel that unless you've been in that position, you have no right to judge. Well, I can say that there has been a time in my life when I might have considered abortion if I'd become pregnant, but I still wouldn't think it was right. Things don't suddenly become right just because I do them.

 

I'd have no hesitation about approving abortion for rape victims, or for young girls who are still children themselves, or women with severe mental illness, or learning difficulties, or whatever.

 

What I do object to is the casual, sometimes repeated, use of surgery to deal with something we should be adult enough to manage on our own. If we are truly women in charge of our bodies, then we don't allow those bodies to become pregnant in the first place. Perhaps if it weren't quite so simple, if doctors didn't just sign the form without reading the question (as Alexis has outlined), we'd be forced to confront our own irresponsible and immature attitudes.

 

I have friends who had abortions in the 70s/80s, for varying reasons. I know the anguish they suffered, then, and for years afterwards. I'd hate for any woman to go through that.

 

I also know a young girl who's recently had two, before finally going ahead with her next pregnancy and keeping the baby in the family. She seems quite unaffected by the experience and laughs it off as 'just one (or two, in her case) of those things'. I know her situation isn't unique - she'll be one kid among many. Even allowing for some bravado on her part, isn't that trend just a little bit worrying?

[elricc]

Have in the past been involved with 12 year olds having abortion and this year a 15 year old on her 3rd

[phoebejo]

Have in the past been involved with 12 year olds having abortion and this year a 15 year old on her 3rd

Would those girls have consented to sex if abortion were illegal? The reason I ask is I wonder if the teenage pregnancy rates in this country would fall if abortion were illegal and kids knew that if they had sex and did not use precautions they would have to have a baby if they became pregnant. In my ideal little world where social abortions do not exist, the number of babies up for adoption would rise considerably.

[elricc]

I have not a shadow of a doubt that they would still have had sex, it was the only way they knew to get someone to "love" them or show affection. Often they wanted to keep the baby but were under an enormous amount of pressure to abort. One went on to have a baby but it was removed by social services and adopted. Before it was adopted it was treated literally as a doll.