Greyhound Racing

[greyhound pal]

Apologies but just going to answer the easy things because I'm exhausted but will come back tomorrow and answer other points when I can think a tad straighter.

 

Mustang Jack is still active? He is 15 years old (if he's still alive)! Or do you mean they are still using his sperm?

 

Yes Mustang Jack is still active and is indeed 15 years old and with 4673 registered pups. He is at Newpark stud who also had Spiral Nikita and Roanakee who died as active stud dogs both aged 14 years. Sad these stud dogs dont' ever get a couch isnt' it? But they're worth too much money and they make sure they get every last penny out of them

 

 

Here though lies my concern.

 

Whilst I accept that you are limited as to what you can do wrt the betting (I hadn't realised that - thanks), the mission "to outlaw breeding, training and racing of greyhounds" worries me.

 

Unless I've misunderstood, this appears to be *designed to* take out the amateur as well. How does the amateur/pet owner continue taking part in fun activities with their dog if your mission is successful?

 

Sorry if I'm harsh here - If thats what it takes, thats what it takes and tbh I don't care less whether this affects any 'fun' activity if it means the end of greyhounds suffering. Sorry

 

Jumping to conclusions? Maybe, but if I am, could you please point out where I've misunderstood?

 

 

I must admit I never concerned myself too much with the fox hunting debate - so I don't remember the scaremongering.

 

However, the posts I have made are not deliberate scaremongering. They are genuine concerns.

 

What you said in quote above this one is so similar to the argument used against banning foxhunting. There were various 'concerns' being raised which I truly believe were propaganda created by those who gained from foxhunting (or the sick gits who just liked it) in with pet dog owners being told they wouldn't be able to risk letting their dogs off in the park in case it killed a squirrel/duck/rabbit/whatever. It was implied that those 'pet owners' would be charged under the proposed Act and thats why they shouldn't back the legislation to ban hunting with dogs. This turned out to be utter bollox. There were several arguments along those lines including one which said there would be a mass slaughter of foxhounds if foxhunting was banned - also failed to materialise. Thats what I meant by scaremongering.

 

I'm going to lie down - I'm rambling

[jane-f]

Jane/Terrier...... honest question time....

 

I and a lot of others have said I'd be prepared to lose 'my' breed (greyhounds) if that's what it meant to end racing.

 

Would you guys not be prepared to lose lure coursing/fun running/whatever it is you do to save tens of thousands of deaths each year?

 

I don't actually believe that would happen - as was said earlier, people still hunt with dogs, it's 'The Hunts' affected. But I'm trying to gauge what is more important to you - the sport you personally partake in or the bigger picture?

 

The dogs are more important - which is why i and many others take our dogs racing, it is important to me and others that the dogs get to run in a safe environment whilst doing something they love and the track or lure coursing offers that, it is also important to me that my dog is happy, and i know she is at her most happiest when she is chasing something, if i could get that else where i would would happily go.

 

 

I never doubted that you would like to see Greyhound racing go Jane, You are bringing up ideas that others haven't thought about.

 

We all love to see our dogs run and there are other ways of running our dogs without the Greyhound racing industry. At many agriculture shows they now have Terrier racing and is very popular and I have seen Whippets run over the same course at these shows.

 

Terrier racing now -i love to see dogs doing what comes naturally and i love to see the dogs coursing,

but i think terrier racing needs to be sorted out a bit better, i will never sit and watch them race - as at the end they end up ripping each other to shreds, last year at one of the shows it took five men to separate the terriers as they was just fighting none stop, one of them had riped open the others lips, as the blokes where pulling them apart.

[kats n greys]

Terrier racing now -i love to see dogs doing what comes naturally and i love to see the dogs coursing,

but i think terrier racing needs to be sorted out a bit better, i will never sit and watch them race - as at the end they end up ripping each other to shreds, last year at one of the shows it took five men to separate the terriers as they was just fighting none stop, one of them had riped open the others lips, as the blokes where pulling them apart.

 

But you love to see dogs ripping a hare to pieces

[jane-f]

But you love to see dogs ripping a hare to pieces

 

 

Can i ask where i have said that, don't think i have,

so can you not jump to presumptions - thank you

hare coursing is illegal, when a dog is lure coursing it is chasing a "Plastic bag"

or on the track its chasing a mechanical hare,

 

And for your information my dog would not rip anything to pieces, she was trained by her old owners

to bring live to hand - so i know if she did actually ever catch anything (which i doubt she will shes to old)

she would bring it back alive and un-hurt.

[kats n greys]

Can i ask where i have said that, don't think i have,

so can you not jump to presumptions - thank you

hare coursing is illegal, when a dog is lure coursing it is chasing a "Plastic bag"

or on the track its chasing a mechanical hare,

 

And for your information my dog would not rip anything to pieces, she was trained by her old owners

to bring live to hand - so i know if she did actually ever catch anything (which i doubt she will shes to old)

she would bring it back alive and un-hurt.

 

 

You just said coursing - sorry if you meant lure coursing.

 

And having had the misfortune to picket the Waterloo Cup, believe me those hares are not returned to hand unmarked

 

The accepted definition of Coursing is the pursuit of game or other animals by dogs

Edited July 31, 2008 by kats n greys

[Happylittlegreensquirrel]

And for your information my dog would not rip anything to pieces, she was trained by her old owners

to bring live to hand - so i know if she did actually ever catch anything (which i doubt she will shes to old)

she would bring it back alive and un-hurt.

 

 

I strongly suspect my lurchers were used for coursing before they came to me and a few years back together both of my boys did catch a hare , they brought it back alive to me and it died of a heart attack moments after they gave it to me

 

there was not a mark on the poor hare

[Terrier]

Jane/Terrier...... honest question time....

 

I and a lot of others have said I'd be prepared to lose 'my' breed (greyhounds) if that's what it meant to end racing.

 

Would you guys not be prepared to lose lure coursing/fun running/whatever it is you do to save tens of thousands of deaths each year?

 

I don't actually believe that would happen - as was said earlier, people still hunt with dogs, it's 'The Hunts' affected. But I'm trying to gauge what is more important to you - the sport you personally partake in or the bigger picture?

I don't personally partake in any sport - although I would like to at some stage in the future.

 

To take your question purely at face value - it's a no-brainer. If I could “save tens of thousands of deaths each year†simply by deciding not to take part in an activity then of course I wouldn’t take part.

 

 

 

The bigger picture? I’m looking at the future of the whole species. Not just the future of one breed. (ie millions of dogs per year, not just thousands)

 

 

 

Sorry if I'm harsh here - If thats what it takes, thats what it takes and tbh I don't care less whether this affects any 'fun' activity if it means the end of greyhounds suffering. Sorry

 

Is that “what it takes� Do you REALLY have to take down amateur activities to improve the welfare of greyhounds?

 

 

 

Essentially what you’re saying then is that if you are successful, people will be left with ALL dogs having to come from backyard breeders or puppy mills?

 

 

 

That’s too high a price for me.

 

 

 

There is much about the greyhound racing industry that’s abhorrent, but if puppy farming and backyard breeding is the cure then I’d rather have the disease.

 

 

 

I COULD support a move to end commercial racing if that didn’t mean that we would be sacrificing the health of the whole species. Not just the breed – the whole species.

 

What you said in quote above this one is so similar to the argument used against banning foxhunting. There were various 'concerns' being raised which I truly believe were propaganda created by those who gained from foxhunting (or the sick gits who just liked it) in with pet dog owners being told they wouldn't be able to risk letting their dogs off in the park in case it killed a squirrel/duck/rabbit/whatever. It was implied that those 'pet owners' would be charged under the proposed Act and thats why they shouldn't back the legislation to ban hunting with dogs. This turned out to be utter bollox. There were several arguments along those lines including one which said there would be a mass slaughter of foxhounds if foxhunting was banned - also failed to materialise. Thats what I meant by scaremongering.

 

Note the inverted commas around the word, “concerns†(above). I happen to think that the future health of dogs is a valid concern.

 

 

 

I don’t know much about the fox hunting debate, so can’t make any direct comparisons. However, it seems that you are dismissing concerns about the wider implications of a racing ban on the grounds that the hunting ban turned out ok.

 

 

 

MAYBE so, but BSL didn’t, did it? Look what happens when concerns are not properly dealt with.

 

 

 

I have no direct involvement with racing – I’m just a pet owner with a concern for animal welfare.

[ReikiAnge]

Is that "what it takes"? Do you REALLY have to take down amateur activities to improve the welfare of greyhounds?

 

Essentially what you're saying then is that if you are successful, people will be left with ALL dogs having to come from backyard breeders or puppy mills?

 

That's too high a price for me.

 

There is much about the greyhound racing industry that's abhorrent, but if puppy farming and backyard breeding is the cure then I'd rather have the disease.

 

Where has anyone said puppy farming and backyard breeding is the cure to ending greyhound racing (or bringing about acceptable changes, although I'm not sure there are any)? I don't think anyone posting here is any more supportive of bad breeding than they are greyhound racing?

 

Do you consider it wrong to breed dogs (well) to be purely pets? Do you feel any dog bred should be bred for a working purpose of some kind? Sorry if I have misunderstood, just an impression I have gained from a few posts you have made.

 

I'm a purely "pet owner" myself but don't have a problem with dogs being worked as such, although I don't agree at all with hunting animals just for the hell of it - for food is a different thing entirely, although I'm veggie and it's not something I would do. Anyway going a bit off topic here.

[Terrier]

I would suggest that for the majority of people (and it's certainly true for those I know), they choose to open their homes to a dog for companionship / pet purposes, not for any specific 'activity' or other 'purpose'. Most people I know are happy to share their lives with their dogs, enjoy taking them out for walks / on holiday etc, and maybe occasionally go to 'fun' events. I don't believe you have to share a purpose or activity in order to bond with them. Some people like to adopt older dogs who might not be able to fulfill a 'purpose' other than being a companion anyway I do agree that dogs that were bred for specific purposes can make wonderful companions - our ex puppy farmed girl does, and like greyhound racing,that's an example of where financial motives override any welfare issues.

 

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth but am struggling to understand - are you saying that there should be no such thing as dogs that are purely pets / companions?

 

I think you have misunderstood me. I’ll try to explain a little better (although I can’t guarantee making any more sense this time!!!!!)

 

 

 

I am VERY MUCH IN FAVOUR of people keeping dogs as pets. My dog is a pet, every dog I’ve had before him was a pet. Pets are great!!

 

 

 

I also agree that you don’t *need* to take part in an organised activity to bond with your pets. Many people who do take part in activities with their pets though, do point out that it improves their bond.

 

 

 

It’s interesting that you too are in favour of pet keeping.

 

 

 

Thousands of pet dogs are needlessly destroyed each year (note the parallel with racing). For that reason (among others) I firmly believe that pet ownership is in need of REFORM.

 

 

 

Part of that reform should be that people should not breed dogs unless they are healthy and homed responsibly. If they are striving for something. Somebody who is active with their dog in some way, and is striving for something should hopefully know enough about the dogs they create - their needs, their characters etc to give useful advice to prospective owners about their proper care. They would also be able to determine what sort of home their dog needs and be selective. That would reduce the chance of their dogs being dumped by an ill-prepared owner.

 

 

 

If that activity demands ability to be shown outside the conformation ring, then it puts a demand for the health and/or temperament of the dog as well.

 

 

 

Compare this to dogs bred solely for the pet market. What are they striving for?

 

 

 

There’s nothing to aim for whatsoever except sales. Virtually all dogs have the capacity to make great pets, so NOBODY can possibly be any better than anybody else wrt creating more dogs. Look at the problem in the US with the proliferation of “pet breedersâ€. Their shelters are overflowing and a large part of that problem begins with lousy pet breeders.

 

 

 

Offers back-up? How much can the “average†pet owner really offer? What about the BELOW AVERAGE pet owner? How do you tell the difference anyway? It’s a matter of opinion until it’s too late. Just being a pet owner doesn’t require you to know a damn thing about dogs. Knowing about dogs is essential to being able to offer back up.

 

 

 

Being active isn’t a 100% guarantee that a breeder is good (there’s far more to it than that), but not active in any way = bad. I have no problem whatsoever with dogs being bred for a particular purpose and being placed in pet homes – none whatsoever.

 

 

 

I’m not saying that people should not have pets – I’m saying that if people want a pet then they should go either to rescue or to a *good* breeder.

 

 

 

How does one go about breeding WELL if they are breeding SOLELY for the pet market?

[Terrier]

Where has anyone said puppy farming and backyard breeding is the cure to ending greyhound racing (or bringing about acceptable changes, although I'm not sure there are any)? I don't think anyone posting here is any more supportive of bad breeding than they are greyhound racing?

In so many words? Nowhere.

 

However, unless I have misunderstood something somewhere, if you look at the implications of what is being proposed, backyard breeders and puppy farmers would be the only breeders left. Forever.

 

Do you consider it wrong to breed dogs (well) to be purely pets? Do you feel any dog bred should be bred for a working purpose of some kind? Sorry if I have misunderstood, just an impression I have gained from a few posts you have made.

You've understood that bit perfectly. I've gone into more detail in my previous post (my reply to Maria).

[Rudi]

So are you saying that it is better to breed greyhounds for a purpose e.g. racing than it is for someone to breed dogs purely as pets and that if racing is banned, then no-one will bother breeding for purpose so their health (such as it is) will deteriorate? Sorry if I've misunderstood.

[Terrier]

So are you saying that it is better to breed greyhounds for a purpose e.g. racing than it is for someone to breed dogs purely as pets and that if racing is banned, then no-one will bother breeding for purpose so their health (such as it is) will deteriorate? Sorry if I've misunderstood.

Not quite.

 

It is better to breed dogs (not JUST greyhounds) for a purpose than to breed them *just* as a pet. Striving for a dog that is capable of doing something is better than striving for nothing at all.

 

If racing ALONE was banned, I don't think it would have much effect at all. We'd still have lure coursing to ensure sighthounds' health.

 

However, my concern is that the ban on racing would include a ban on amateur racing, amateur lure coursing, amateur flyball, amateur schutzhund....etc.

 

Look back at greyhound pal's earlier post:

 

Sorry if I'm harsh here - If thats what it takes, thats what it takes and tbh I don't care less whether this affects any 'fun' activity if it means the end of greyhounds suffering.

 

Demand that breeders strive for health, and you've got a better chance of getting healthy dogs. Make no demands on breeders whatsoever, and the only difference between one breeder and the next is price. Back to £££s taking over animal welfare again, but this time without any demand for the dogs to be able to do anything.

Edited August 5, 2008 by Terrier

[sparkle]

Not really in this thread

 

BUT:

 

to Terrier

 

I have a collie cross, he doesn't work, we do the odd stint at flyball now and again but other than that nothing, Jack is completely happy with his life and as long as he is with me always will be, we regularly walk through fields with sheep and he shows no interest in them, so no working for my boy

 

My parents had a parson's JRT when I was growing up, Tessa never hunted or raced, or anything else that terriers are supposedly bred for, she had a long and happy life being a family pet, they have now got another parson's JRT, again Tango won't be working, she will be a family pet, much loved, happy and spoilt

 

Personally I strive for a dog that is capable of being happy and loved

[Terrier]

I don't doubt that Jack and Tessa are/were much loved pets that have/had happy lives. That's great (and the love you have for your dogs shows through in your post!).

 

Do you feel that it would have been ethically responsible to breed from Tessa?

 

(Jack has shown that he is at least fit enough and temperamentally sound enough to join in with flyball - ie some form of performance testing has been done).

 

You say that you strive for a dog that is capable of being happy and loved. Does that not apply to ALL dogs?

Edited August 5, 2008 by Terrier

[cycas]

However, my concern is that the ban on racing would include a ban on amateur racing, amateur lure coursing, amateur flyball, amateur schutzhund....etc.

 

... and I think that has been answered, and I cannot see any justification for concern about it.

 

Again and again, posters in this thread from all perspectives have stated that it is the industrialisation and factory-like scale of the greyhound industry that they object to above all, and that the problems arise when people start to look at dogs as a means to make money, seeing them in that one context only, rather than as well-rounded animals with many different roles in life who are kept and supported lifelong as family members.

 

Nobody, so far as I can see, has suggested or supported the loss of all dog sports. Even if someone did support it in this thread, it's a vanishingly unlikely that it would get past all the consultations, be passed by all the organisations that would be likely to get the nod on a piece of legislation of that kind.

 

There is no need for conflict between a wish to see the end of greyhound racing, and a belief that many dogs enjoy and benefit from some form of competitive sport. There are absolutely piles of laws that distinguish between amateur and professional organisations, this will not be a difficult scenario.

 

Some people have said that they think it's would be a reasonable exchange to sacrifice a specific dog sport to get rid of the racing INDUSTRY - not all racing in any possible context, but the system that factory-farms disposable dogs for one purpose only. My understanding of their posts was that by that, they meant sports that share facilities with greyhound racing and depend on it for infrastructure.

 

But even if they meant all speed racing involving dogs, where do you get the idea that this is 'for ever'? Legislation isn't forever, and we are discussiong a law that would only affect the UK. If it did prove impossible to ban greyhound racing without simultaneously banning, say amateur lure coursing at the same time (although I cannot see for a moment why this should be the case) then there is absolutely no reason why it could not be completely banned for say, 5 years, 10 years - to remove the entrenched self-interest of the existing industry, then review the law to provide exemptions, starting from a less difficult base position.

Edited August 5, 2008 by cycas