Greyhound Racing

[cycas]

Sorry but i just needed to point something out, you will find the whippet is very common and isnt run in many fun competitions much any more, the whippet is heading the same way as the greyhound is now, they are raced in betting races for the general public, talking to the woman from the breed society who is the re-homer for the breed a few months ago, they are getting quite a few whippets in for re-homing, both show and x racing dogs, you only have to look on K9 to see the amount of people who race whippets at race tracks

the amount of whippet racing clubs there are now, there has even been started a whippet racing club federation who drug tests the dogs before races, if its only fun why do they need to test the dogs.

 

I didn't know that, the few you see all seem to be pets round here and the whippet breeders I have met are very much on the pet side of things - but then Cornwall is often not typical when it comes to rescue. If a greyhound racing ban law was appropriately worded, then it might be able to also stop the commercialisation of whippet racing - as you say there would be no point banning greyhound racing and allowing whippet racing to come in as a direct replacement.

[Kathyw]

I would like a ban on all betting on animals. Anyone breaking the law to be fined heavily so as to make it umprofitable.

 

It doesn't matter whether they are horses, dogs, whatever - where there is betting - there is greed and the welfare of the animals goes right out of the window.

 

Humans on the other hand can be bet on as they can shift for themselves and if they don't like their conditions of work - they can leave and their welfare is assured and they always have somewhere warm and safe to sleep when no longer a 'safe bet'.

If only the animals had that choice.

Edited July 30, 2008 by Kathyw

[jane-f]

Thats what i would be more worried about once greyhound racing is banned,

unless they put something in the ban, then whippet racing could end up taking over,

 

the data base on the BWRA has over 23,624 entries and thats just pedigree whippets,

theres no knowing how many non -pedigree's there are racing,

at the mo pups dont need to be regesterd (sp) until there ready for racing,

so god knows how many pups are being breed,

 

the data base is still under construction so is not a full and complete record.

 

http://www.thebwra.co.uk/index.htm

 

its getting to the point, it will end up being like greyhound racing,

if greyhound racing was banned, and whippet racing wasn't - then i think those who used to do greyhound racing

would think about taking up whippet racing.

[greyhound pal]

I am thinking various thoughts.

 

Firstly, its more likely that welfare reforms/lack of attendance at tracks could potentially end the affordability of the majority of greyhound owners. That wouldn't necessarily end racing but it could create problems in that it would really be those only in it for money that would be able to financially sustain the "sport". Which may mean longer term that the welfare aspect could become hidden deeper.

 

One thing I have learned is that your Joe Bloggs owner does it for the competitiveness rather than plain old money. Thats not to say money won't come into it. However you then have to look at who are the big moneymakers in the sport. The bookies. The trainers who are taking and running BAGS dogs. The tracks through BAGS sponorship. The greyhound dealers. The breeders.

 

 

Last night after reading Laura's post about the dogs bought at auction and taken to spain - the stuff of nightmares, I have a question or two - I think Laura, Claz or Greyhound Pal would be able to maybe answer for me.

 

My dream, like yours, is the total abolishment of animal racing, if the betting offices want to continue making money, let the punters bet on highly paid humans who run around with balls, drive fasat cars etc and benefit financially for their efforts, not the animals who do not.

 

If racing was abolished would it stop the auctions? would people who breed Greyhounds continue because the market is still open for them in spain etc?

 

Would places like the peterborough auctions go out of business?

 

Any law made in England would have a direct impact on the Irish breeders which would mean a significant reduction in the numbers that are bred. I would strongly doubt the Irish racing industry could financially support itself to be able to continue and would eventually fold. I also strongly suspect those who have made mega money from breeding greyhounds (good stud dogs 2000 euros a pop) would find something more profitable than greyhounds if the money wasn't there.

 

Majority of the dogs going through the auctions in Ireland are either bought by people who will then transport them to England/UK or by the dog dealers who will buy in Ireland and bring them to the English auctions. Therefore I imagine that if the Irish greyhound Board was able to sustain greyhound racing in their country without the financial boost the UK gives them whatever they did breed and sell would be a significant reduction in what the current situation is.

 

Peterborough, Perry Barr etc auctions are nothing compared to what you face in the Irish auctions. At least there is a pretence for animal welfare (believe it or not) in the UK which there certainly isnt in Ireland. I would like to think these horrific places would be a thing of the past shoudl racing end in the UK for whatever reason.

 

Cyprus also has racing as does Morocco although Morocco was supposed to close, it didn't. But again, a lot of these dogs are transported out but there are fewer transports now Spain has stopped and its unlikely that export abroad would be viable to sustain the Irish breeding/dealing/racing industry.

 

Greyhound Action, for example, has been campaigning for betting companies to transfer their involvement in live greyhound racing to virtual greyhound racing - I think there is potential there, and this would help reduce the economic impact of the laws on everyone but those directly involved in training and racing live dogs.

 

Fab post Cycas. The difficulty is that people hear 'ban greyhound racing' and they jump immediately to all sorts of conclusions instead of listening/reading what this could entail - its frustrating!

 

I just want to add that GA Scotland is a separate organisation and our 'mission' is to outlaw the breeding, training and racing of greyhounds in Scotland. This is because if same was banned in England or any other part of the UK, Scotland would not recognise this. However Westminster retains power over gambling, taxes etc in Scotland therefore we could not achieve a ban of betting on dogs in Scotland - that would have to be UK wide legislation.

 

We have written up how a ban could be brought in but I think its more specific to Scotland than the rest of the UK with the exception of maybe Wales. Thats because Scotland has five flapping tracks and only one NGRC hence why I've put the bit about racing becoming unaffordable for most which could lead to the end of it in Scotland if the right reforms were brought in.

 

Its all very complex though. Whatever way no legislation would ban greyhound racing without a time period - we recommended two year period which would mean there would be a reduction in dogs bought in for racing an it would naturally die out. n Given teh average career is 18 months this shouldn't create much more wastage than 'normal'.

 

I believe all race tracks have shut in Spain, though I don't know whether some greyhound still end up there because the galgeros like to cross them with the spanish galgos .

 

My understanding is that there are some still being transported to Spain and that could be the reason behind it. Our 'mate' Normilles is still doing the occasional run apparently.

 

 

its getting to the point, it will end up being like greyhound racing,

if greyhound racing was banned, and whippet racing wasn't - then i think those who used to do greyhound racing

would think about taking up whippet racing.

 

What are you basing that theory on? Personally I dont' think for one second those who race greyhounds would change to whippets. They're different dogs for a start and any legislation which ends greyhound racing would take into account any such issues that could be transferred to other animals.

 

I dont' think this is a valid argument for not banning greyhound racing or has any real basis other than to worry whippet owners. Remember the scaremongering (that failed to materialise) when the hunting with dogs legislation came in?

[Kathyw]

Thanks Greyhound Pal - that makes me feel better that the dispicable beeding for profit and sending the dogs abroad would also be a thing of the past.

[greyhound pal]

What it would most definitely stop is the sickening amount of pups bred from one dog.

 

The three top ACTIVE stud dogs at the moment are Droopys Vieri, Droopys Kewell and Mustang Jack who between them have produced 17,238 pups to date - and thats only the ones registered.

 

In the last year stud dogs Spiral Nikita, Roanakee and Top Honcho have all passed away being hired out for stud til the very end. Between those three dogs there were 19,840 pups registered.

 

NOw then we can get into Artifical INsemination and frozen greyhound semen which was legalised in Ireland a few years ago - these stud dogs are dead but they could keep producing pups...

 

Six dogs - over 37,000 pups is just too many. Average a litter size then times it by 2000 euros per pop (for want of a better phrase) then work out how much the breeders made. Especially given three out of the six belong to the same people. Scary stuff.

 

When people talk of making money out of greyhound racing they tend to think owners/trainers/bookies. First and foremost we need to cut the demand to stop people like this providing the supply

 

[elricc]

greyhound racing still goes on in Cyprus and Morocco, and in Denmark there is a big push to open tracks.

I know the Normiles still transport, so bitches are still going to Spain

 

Terrier I think you need to have a good look at the racing industry before you continue to condone any part of it. Go to an auction, but don't mention welfare, as you may be threatened, and don't take any money as you will buy dogs. Go into a racing kennel if you can, and go round the back of a stadium after a race.

[ClazUK]

The more I think about this, the more I come to this conclusion:

 

To defend greyhound racing and want to keep it, you either need to be:

 

a) oblivious of the facts

b) actively involved

c) a callous person who really doesn't care about the dogs welfare

 

Given the facts and first hand experiences have been added to this thread for many days now, no-one reading it can be in the a) category. So the defenders have to be b) or c), which is downright worrying on an animal welfare forum

[cycas]

The three top ACTIVE stud dogs at the moment are Droopys Vieri, Droopys Kewell and Mustang Jack who between them have produced 17,238 pups to date - and thats only the ones registered.

 

Mustang Jack is still active? He is 15 years old (if he's still alive)! Or do you mean they are still using his sperm?

[Terrier]

The more I think about this, the more I come to this conclusion:

 

To defend greyhound racing and want to keep it, you either need to be:

 

a) oblivious of the facts

b) actively involved

c) a callous person who really doesn't care about the dogs welfare

 

Given the facts and first hand experiences have been added to this thread for many days now, no-one reading it can be in the a) category. So the defenders have to be b) or c), which is downright worrying on an animal welfare forum

If any of your statements is true about me, then it's (a).

 

I'm not suggesting that racing as it stands at the moment is a good thing. I'm questioning whether a ban is the best way forward.

[Terrier]

So many fab posts here I really don't have anything to add.

 

Tried to get on to post before I went camping straight from nightshift but didn't get a chance to post.

 

Just want to ask Terrier - do you still think that there is room to rehome all the greyhounds once the industry has declared they're no good? Can answer why this would be impossible although I think the figures really speak for themself.

2 answers to your question.

 

As a commercial industry? I don't believe they can rehome *all* of the greyhounds produced. I do believe that they can breed *less* and still have a viable industry, and I also believe that there's scope to rehome more - but all of them? I doubt it.

 

If, for instance it was taken down to an amateur level? Why not?

 

It would remove the financial incentive for those huge kennels in Eire and the UK, and leave just those that are enjoy the sport - much like with other activities at an amateur level.

 

Would that really be so bad?

[Terrier]

I'm trying to answer everybody here - but as I am alone on this side of the debate - it's difficult to keep up. My apologies if I miss anybody's points.

 

Depends how the legislation is worded. I'm dubious as to whether most dog sports are really suitable for commercialisation on the scale of greyhound racing, but I would expect that any reasonably well thought out legislation would be worded in such a way that this would be impossible.

 

The campaigns call for 'ban greyhound racing' because that is, I think, fairly clear and self-explanatory as a campaign message, but any law is of course going to be a lot more carefully worded than to just say 'greyhound racing is banned' ! I would hope everyone has learned from the BSL debacle that legislation that names specific breeds of dog is messy and unenforceable.

You've hit on another concern I have wrt banning racing.

 

I would also have hoped that everyone had learned from the BSL debacle, but I see no evidence to suggest that was the case. We are after all, still subject to a law that has not just failed, but is still failing 17 years on. Even now there are calls from some quarters to extend it to other breeds.

 

I will not underestimate our government's ability to make a bad situation worse.

 

 

virtual greyhound racing - I think there is potential there,

I agree. (but then I'm not a betting man!)

 

I would suggest a sensible approach to legislation would be instead of defining greyhound racing as 'what greyhounds do', look at the revenue streams for the industry and define 'greyhound racing' legally as any industry involving live dogs that uses these revenue streams. Then prohibit that.

With you so far.

 

I imagine that there would probably be some impact on some fun sports, but in many areas of life we have exemptions for small scale fun activities, and governments usually consult widely on this sort of thing : I really don't think it would be too difficult to provide in the legislation for these.

I'd certainly hope that would be the case - although I'm still not going to put much trust in a government that thinks BSL is a good idea.

 

I don't think that the demise of the greyhound racing industry would be the end of greyhounds: racing is a comparitive eyeblink in their long history. Nor do I think that greyhounds bred by a few responsible breeders would suddenly be riddled with problems. I'm sure there would be problems, but just the reduction in volume and the ability to assess dogs on their health past the age of 5 would be a good start.

The end of that "sport" that bulldogs took part in wasn't the end of the bulldog either. I rather wish it had been.

 

You mention that "racing is a comparative eyeblink in their history", but the history of the greyhound has been one of coursing. The loss of coursing is an even shorter eyeblink.

 

I'm confused by your comment that we would be able to assess the health of dogs past the age of 5. Rather - I'm concerned that if we lost racing*, we'd lose the ability to assess the health of the dogs under 5 as well.

 

I'm not suggesting that the decline in greyhound health would be sudden. After all, we're starting from a fairly healthy founding stock. I think the decline would be slow, possibly slower than it has been in other breeds simply because of the health of that stock.

 

(*and lure coursing - if racing were to go I'd be pinning a lot of hope on that sport to keep our sighthounds healthy).

 

*************************************

For all that we are on opposite sides of this debate cycas - from reading your posts we do at least appear to share a lot of common ground.

[Kathyw]

Those who enjoy the sport are the people making/or trying to by betting, money.

I am sure that the dogs do not enjoy it.

Yes they may well enjoy running but running free and not being forced to run when poorly or injured.

 

The fact that you keep trying to suggest ways for this abomination to continue in some form or another makes me wonder if you are actually reading the replies on here.

 

If racing of dogs remains in any form there will be abuse - there will always be people who find a way to make more money from the dogs.

 

I know little compared to most posters on here and I am grateful for my innocence but even I can see there is no way but a complete ban to stop the cruelty.

[Terrier]

The difficulty is that people hear 'ban greyhound racing' and they jump immediately to all sorts of conclusions instead of listening/reading what this could entail - its frustrating!

You *might* be describing me there!!!

 

I just want to add that GA Scotland is a separate organisation and our 'mission' is to outlaw the breeding, training and racing of greyhounds in Scotland. This is because if same was banned in England or any other part of the UK, Scotland would not recognise this. However Westminster retains power over gambling, taxes etc in Scotland therefore we could not achieve a ban of betting on dogs in Scotland - that would have to be UK wide legislation.

Here though lies my concern.

 

Whilst I accept that you are limited as to what you can do wrt the betting (I hadn't realised that - thanks), the mission "to outlaw breeding, training and racing of greyhounds" worries me.

 

Unless I've misunderstood, this appears to be *designed to* take out the amateur as well. How does the amateur/pet owner continue taking part in fun activities with their dog if your mission is successful?

 

Jumping to conclusions? Maybe, but if I am, could you please point out where I've misunderstood?

 

I dont' think this is a valid argument for not banning greyhound racing or has any real basis other than to worry whippet owners. Remember the scaremongering (that failed to materialise) when the hunting with dogs legislation came in?

I must admit I never concerned myself too much with the fox hunting debate - so I don't remember the scaremongering.

 

However, the posts I have made are not deliberate scaremongering. They are genuine concerns.

[cycas]

I'm still not going to put much trust in a government that thinks BSL is a good idea.

 

Although I trust our government (and indeed pretty much all professional politicians) about as far as I can throw them, I think it is a little unfair to say that they think BSL is a good idea.

 

It's a law that they inherited that they haven't repealed. If they repealed it, then they would be expected to put something else in instead, which would be a difficult and thankless task that would garner horrible headlines in the tabloid press, might well panic people who are afraid of dogs, and would probably not even end up with all the doglovers being pleased. I'd love them to tackle it, but I can certainly see why they haven't. The fact that they haven't repealed it doesn't mean that if they were making a new law, they would not take representations from the police and dog charities on the difficulties of dealing with any law that tries to classify dogs by what they look like.

 

To be honest, I don't think they banned hunting because they are animal rights fans, I think they did it because they reckoned it would please many of their core supporters, who are primarily urban, and would make them unpopular mostly among people in rural areas who would never have voted for them anyway. Of course there are exceptions to this, but on the whole, I reckon they abolished hunting because it made them look like they were tackling tough issues, while not actually risking many votes at all.

 

If we are talking politics, I think that the case against greyhound racing is relatively unlikely to get a sympathetic ear from a Labour government, because it's a relatively urban and working class sport and they can't afford to antagonise that audience. I think that's why they didn't tackle it when they tackled hunting. The Cons would never have tackled hunting, but might just possibly be persuaded to go after greyhound racing with a bit of luck, if they have a sufficient majority next time they get in and hang onto it long enough. The Libs might well act against both, but will probably never form another government so it's probably academic unless the bill was introduced as a private member's bill with no whip, which I think is not that likely, it's just got too much money riding on it.

Edited July 31, 2008 by cycas