Rescues And Breeders

[Katiebob]

ok, I didn't really want to get involved in this but it seems this may be helpful so here goes

 

I breed and show rough collies. I suspect that's no surprise to many of you - and some of you know already because I don't make a secret of it if asked. I am also a fosterer for Rough Collie rescue and have had quite a few rescues living with me and my dogs - and have kept one or two. For the record, at least one of the dogs I kept was as poor an example of a rough collie as you would find so I can assure you I didn't keep her because of her good looks or fantastic breeding

 

All my male collies are neutered. However, I recently bred from one of my blue merle bitches who was of the standard that I was looking for. I intend to mate her again, probably in the autumn. I have kept one of her daughers who is lovely and has been quite successful in the show ring. She also has the best temperament of any rough collie I've ever come across or owned, and I know there are a few on this board who have met her and would endorse that fact. I will breed from her too when she's a little older.

 

When my first litter was born I was desperate to do the right thing for them. As far as I'm concerned, they are MY babies and I brought them into this world, therefore I will do everything in my power to ensure that they have the most perfect homes I can find for them. That's MY responsibility. Some of the homes were quite a long way from me - the other end of the country in fact - and it's pretty hard to be looking after pups responsibly and running off a few hundred miles to do homechecks. I asked friends to homecheck for me and they were absolute stars and helped me out. I would have found a way but it would have been very difficult without their help.

 

The point is, these friends were RESCUE homecheckers, first and foremost. In rescue, we take it for granted that we can find someone to homecheck wherever in the country we want homechecked but breeders don't have the same network. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it's not as easy. I always offer petrol costs for anyone who homechecks for me as a breeder. In fairness, when my homechecker wasn't well, I asked someone in the breed if they could get someone to homecheck for me and it was done completely voluntarily.

 

I completely agree with Kaos' point that, if breeders and rescues were to work together, the world would be a better place for all our dogs - pedigree and non-pedigree - but currently there seems to be an attitude in rescue that all breeders are 'evil' and from breeders that 'rescues' have a holier than thou attitude, so it's not easy to get them to agree! There's good and bad in both cases - but it would be fab if the good ones on both sides could get together to help the dogs.

 

The husband of the breeder of my foundation bitch told me I was mad to try to homecheck my pups' homes - he said it would be insulting: none of the homes that I chose for my pups had any issue at all with being homechecked.

 

Just goes to show, that we need to open our minds to see what can be done and not presume that things can't change, just because they're not the 'norm'.

[Trallwm farm]

I didnt know.

[zico's mum]

I know a breeder who asks those questions and who homechecks, has a contract and who insists the dogs are returned to her care in any event the dog cannot be kept at any point in the future.

 

Ditto - and the grilling I received for Duncan was as thorough as it was for Daisy - in fact it may have been even more as I was living in a flat then and she was very concerned about toilet training amongst other queries - but the fact I had had a dog for 17 years previous in a flat swayed it I think.I still meet up,she will take back Duncan if needed - although as I want them to be homed together unless Daisy's rescue agreed she could go there too I probably won't take her up on it.

Edited April 16, 2007 by zico's mum

[staffymad]

I think this is a hard one. I know many rescue volunteers would be terrified at the fact to give up the little spare time they have to help a breeder rather than a rescue. However I can also see the advantage a home checked home for a bought puppy has.

 

However, maybe if breeders would themselves establish a guideline all good breeders would work to, i.e. home checking, back up etc, then maybe rescue volunteers would be more prepared to help out.

 

Also, maybe if the breeder would make a small donation to the rescue of the volunteers choice (something like £5 per home check) people might be more inclined to help.

 

I personally would home check for a 'good and responsible breeder' in the hope that this would be one puppy less that would end up in resue. However I would in return expect that the breeder will let me explain to the buyers about neutering, straying, pet insurance, training etc as I would with any home check. If they wouldn't be happy for me to do this, then I wouldn't be happy to do the home check.

 

Cindy

[Rudi]

The breeder Rudi came from grilled me when I rang her for a puppy. She's 3 hours away and didn't do a home check, although I would not have minded, and had to rely on the fact that I was truthful in answering questions about my home, experience, garden fencing etc., but I had to go and visit her before she would agree to me having a puppy and she would not have sold me a puppy had I not made that effort. I think she would have been pleased to have help homechecking for people who live a good distance away and knowing that she does put money into rescue, I wouldn't have thought she'd expect it for free. Not all rescues homecheck so the deciding factor whether a breeder is a good one or not shouldn't be based on that either.

 

I travelled to see her about 3 times before finally going and collecting Rudi. I went to her as she had a reputation for producing sound puppies with good temperaments and also does not dock. She pays to have the puppies temperament tested so that she can hope to match the right puppy with the right home. When I took him home, even though he was not my first dog or first rottie, I was given a puppy pack with lots of information on the breed, the importance of training, socialisation etc. She regularly phoned me to check how things were going when I first had him and that has developed into a friendship. The contract I signed stated that if I was ever unable to keep him, he must go back to her (this is also in my will as I know she will place him carefully should anything happen to me) and his KC registration is endorsed so that I cannot breed from him (and register the puppies) without her permission. All her puppies are sold with a contract and with endorsements. Some people don't like this and get a bit sniffy but she doesn't care and just refuses to sell them a puppy.

 

She's had two puppies returned for different reasons, one she has kept and the other lives nearby. She maintains an interest in Rudi and with all the puppies with owners who have wanted to stay in contact and we visit several times a year. She has just bred her last litter having had six requests for puppies, she would not have bred the litter without having had a waiting list. She does not charge a stupid amount of money and considering that she has been back and forward to Europe to select a healthy stud with a good temperament, she won't be making a huge profit at all, what drives her is preserving the rottie temperament, maintaining working ability and improving health issues such as OCD. I don't see how there is any similarity between what she does as a breeder and what a puppy farmer churning out unhealthy, miserable puppies from equally miserable bitches, which is what people should be targeting rather than tarring everyone with the same brush which doesn't seem very fair.

Edited April 16, 2007 by Rudi

[Ian]

Also, maybe if the breeder would make a small donation to the rescue of the volunteers choice (something like £5 per home check) people might be more inclined to help.

 

Cindy

 

The principal I agree with but as for the amount I'd say it ought to be a lot more. Volunteers could quite possibly spend £5 of their own money on Petrol. For a hard up rescue I think most volunteers probably dont mind that at all but for someone selling a dog for hundreds of pounds why should anyone not only volunteer to do the work but also be out of pocket for it? I believe the kennel club should insist on a proper & universal policy for anyone who wants to register dogs with them. If a breeder had to pay say for example a vet to do a homecheck do you think he'd consider going for less than £50?

 

It might mean that breeders decided to sell more locally but would that be a bad thing? (would make for easier & more relaible after care perhaps?)

[EGAR]

Katiebob, can I ask why you choose to breed with a dog whos colour is caused by a genetic defect?

Edited April 17, 2007 by EGAR

[merledogs]

No, I would never homecheck for a breeder. If they choose to breed, they do the homechecks - it's their responsibility. I am not giving up my time voluntarily to line their pockets unless they made a large donation to rescue in return (and even then I would probably try to steer the people I was homechecking towards a rescue dog).

 

Even though a so called "responsible" breeder may keep track of all their own pups, what about those dogs' pups (which will inevitably happen, whether accidental or deliberate), and those pups' pups, etc etc etc?

 

I'm not saying I don't agree with some breeding (although any type of breeding doesn't really sit well with me), because I accept that without breeding there would be no dogs, but please accept that you may end up adding to the problem, no matter how "responsible" you consider yourself to be.

Edited April 17, 2007 by madmerle

[Fiona711]

It's such a shame these kind of threads always seem to turn into bash the breeders threads It would be a far better idea if breeders and rescues could work together for the good of the dogs wether breeder bought or rescues. Sadly until peoples attitudes change , on both sides there does not seem to be much hope of that happening which is sad for all the dogs

 

If you look at it from another angle , has anyone considered that somebody who is involved in rescue who buys a puppy from a reputable breeder and neuters that puppy , trains and socializes the pup makes sure the pup gets regular vet checks could be seen as rescuing that puppy from a life of breeding or worse? And just because that pup was bought from a breeder does not mean that a dog in rescue died if the person who bought a pup for what ever reason would not have taken on a rescue dog anyway for what ever reason ? Sadly not everyone is confident enough to take on a rescue dog and maybe they feel their only option is to buy a puppy but who are we to say that is wrong ?

 

Thats why i think education is so important and why the government should be doing more to get rid of the BYB's and puppy farms , if they did that there could be more chance of some kind of control over reputable breeders maybe? In an ideal world i am sure we would all like to see that happen sadly we dont live in an ideal world and if breeders are constantly met with a wall of disapproval and refused help from people in rescue there is no way forward that i can see , which is a real shame for all the dogs concerned.

 

Another thing that i dont understand is the misconception that reputable breeders make loads of money when they breed a litter , when you think about all the costs involved a lot of them don't make a huge profit and can be out of pocket so it;s hardly fair to say they are all lining their pockets .

 

 

Fiona xx

Edited April 17, 2007 by Fiona711

[Kaos]

Katiebob, can I ask why you choose to breed with a dog whos colour is caused by a genetic defect?

 

I can't see how this question is appropriate to this thread?

Perhaps you could take it to PM, email, or even the chat room?

 

 

Please guys.....this topic is something I feel strongly about, and I genuinely would like to hear people's views and ideas on how / if breeders and rescues could build bridges for the good of the animals.

 

I realise it's an emotive topic, and strong opinions are bound to surface, but can we try to keep it on track?

Discussion and debate can be very positive, but it's no good if it gets out of hand and the topic is locked.

[Sherlock Bones]

I echo what Kaos is staying. As in the thread last, night, stay on topic, discuss politely, respect each other's views and don't personally attack. We're all different, that's what makes the world go round. We might not like it, but that's how it is.

 

Any thing remotely out of line and we'll close it.

[EGAR]

I apologize if my question was inappropriate and hope that Katiebob will answer it via PM or email.

[JoC]

That surprises me .

I do know a breeder whos dogs have more spend on them than her kids and the bitches have no more than two litters before being spayed and rehomed.She has exacting homing policies.

Im not ready to accept its a majority breeders policy though

To be brutally honest, I wouldn't consider that a good breeder. I would consider a good breeder as someone who loves and cherishes their dogs for life, whether they are used for breeding or not.

[Rudi]

To be brutally honest, I wouldn't consider that a good breeder. I would consider a good breeder as someone who loves and cherishes their dogs for life, whether they are used for breeding or not.

 

Ditto. I think breeding from a bitch and then moving them along once you've done with them is shameful if it's just to make room for another, younger bitch

[Trallwm farm]

To be brutally honest, I wouldn't consider that a good breeder. I would consider a good breeder as someone who loves and cherishes their dogs for life, whether they are used for breeding or not.

 

 

To be brutually honest I cannot equate anyone who uses thier animals for financial gain with loving thier dogs in the real sense of love. They may like them and admire thier qualities.