-isms....... Why Are Some Acceptable And Others Not?

[laura g]

I too grew up in shops, as it were, and I agree it's a great learning environment, but I still don't understand why its ok to laugh at people's beliefs, life styles, etc, even behind their backs. Let's take a real example - when I told my kids that so-and-so liked to wear women's clothes, even though he was a man, and that they must be kind/polite to him even though the other kids in the village laughed at him, wouldn't I have been a bit hypocritical if I'd then enjoyed a family laugh at his expense over the dinner table?

 

I'm going to leave this thread now; as always I find it hard to convey what I feel on here. I really should stay out of contro.

 

 

oh blimey don't leave! as i said before it's all grey.... if everyone agreed / thought the same then this would be a v boring section!

 

really interesting to hear your views. i'm fascinated to know what kind of comedy you watch; what you find funny. To us, humour is integral to absolutely everything. As I said, I don't correlate laughing at something as being an 'ist' or suffering from an 'ism'. But if you or others think it does... well, thats something I shall have a jolly good think about.

 

Real examples are no prob. We've found humour in watching a busload of hasidic jews empty out on to the beach - they looked completely out of place. At a blind man who's wonderful lab was leading him carefully and slowly up the middle of the road! he wasn't in danger at all but the dog obviously was on a completely seperate mission. And my son, who has just discovered schoolboy toilet level humour, went puce when he was told a woman who he knew to be a lesbian lived in a place called Lyminge.

 

Doesn't mean to say we have anything less than respect for all these groups of people. There is more than a little Jewish blood in our family, I am blind in one eye and the lesbian is my step sister!

 

Funny story: years ago i took my wedding photos into work. There was one of the siblings - myself and new husband, my brother and his 6 brothers/sisters. My terribly pc work colleague, knowing that one of Peter's sibs was adopted, asked which one that was.

 

"um... the black one"

 

(actually only works as a v funny line if you're aware that the rest of us are not black!).

[scotslass]

Och, I've just read my post and now it sounds as if I'm leaving cos I was challenged (or "not getting my own way" as me old Ma would say)...so I'm still here.

 

Krusewalker, sorry I was personal. I thought I was just challenging your stance, but I know it's stupid to get people's backs up like that and I'm old enough to know better. In the same room, over a drink, it might be fine, but the written word isn't so forgiving.

 

Laura g, I guess what I meant about staying off contro was that I don't come across as the person I am inside. The real me is irreverent, very non-pc, and has a very black sense of humour. I have adopted siblings, and other members of my large extended family, of different ethnic background - who have the same sense of humour. We all laugh at things we shouldn't. I have a cruel tongue, I laugh too easily, and am not at all po-faced and proper, which is how I often sound. I'm no example to anyone of how to behave, really. Believe it or not I'm quite tolerant - I've raised four very different, independent kids, so I've had to be.

 

I suppose I don't take anything that seriously, despite my posts; I hate injustice and cruelty, but that aside, life's too short to be serious.

[nouggatti]

The real me is irreverent, very non-pc, and has a very black sense of humour. I have adopted siblings, and other members of my large extended family, of different ethnic background - who have the same sense of humour. We all laugh at things we shouldn't. I have a cruel tongue, I laugh too easily, and am not at all po-faced and proper, which is how I often sound. I'm no example to anyone of how to behave, really. Believe it or not I'm quite tolerant - I've raised four very different, independent kids, so I've had to be.

 

I suppose I don't take anything that seriously, despite my posts; I hate injustice and cruelty, but that aside, life's too short to be serious.

 

You sound a bit like me, my happiest times at work are sharing the more inane sides of being pc with my boss who thinks a bit like I do. I like your description of yourself, it is very me.

 

I have come to realise (as an adult raised Irish in a very traditional home, but rather strangely with parents who were shopkeepers) that my upbringing was unconventional in an Irish sense as I grew up with no prejudices to what I enountered, the one thing I didn't encounter was alternative sexuality and my upbringing gave me the skills to learn that that too was fine.

 

That said I do have certain isms of my own, but I can recognise them and why I have them, and I think that is something to reflect on and realise rather than having a blanket ism without reason, if that makes any sense?

 

Many of my ism's are challenged regularly and I am constantly whittling my list of isms as they become pointless.

[greyhound pal]

I meant that paedophiles excused their behaviour, as do people who sexually abuse their animals. They'll maintain that the children and animals - whom we perceive as victims - are in fact willing participants.

 

Have to disagree that is always the case. Someone I worked with was deeply ashamed of his 'urges' - he knew it was wrong but couldn't control his 'desires'. Because of the nature of this individual and his learning/mental capacity, its likely to be true in this case. However he knew it was 'wrong' and such desires drove him towards suicide Its like a lot of sexual violence - is it an urge or is it about power? (think there may be another thread there!) I believe its different in each case.

 

 

You sound a bit like me, my happiest times at work are sharing the more inane sides of being pc with my boss who thinks a bit like I do. I like your description of yourself, it is very me.

 

I have come to realise (as an adult raised Irish in a very traditional home, but rather strangely with parents who were shopkeepers) that my upbringing was unconventional in an Irish sense as I grew up with no prejudices to what I enountered, the one thing I didn't encounter was alternative sexuality and my upbringing gave me the skills to learn that that too was fine.

 

That said I do have certain isms of my own, but I can recognise them and why I have them, and I think that is something to reflect on and realise rather than having a blanket ism without reason, if that makes any sense?

 

Many of my ism's are challenged regularly and I am constantly whittling my list of isms as they become pointless.

 

I don't know where I stand I was brought up in an area described at the time as Europes AIDS capital and there was literally prostitution right outside my front door. It was relatively multi-cultural and I think I just accepted it all. My father and his family were/are a bunch of bigotted orange men. My mothers family were 'open' and it was all about education and making your own decisions. I've always had an interest in people and diversity.

 

I hate pc-ness although I'm very socially aware although this is mostly down to my career choice than anything. I do get easily offended by specific words and connoations attached to hose words but I think its because I tend to know people who are behing teh labels and I really like the majority of them. My work life means I meet and deal with people who are classed by the majority as the shyte of society. And actually I prefer them to your average person because there heads are rarely up there own arse and they are more 'real'. I like real people and can't be bothered with pretention.

 

However I *may* now be classed as racist as i have quite extreme views on that issue. Although I amn't BNP (who I despise) or demanding anyone goes 'back to their own country', my views are this:

 

I am sick to death living in a society (or working in a workplace) where you are too scared to challenge anyone because they will use whatever their 'ism' could be to say they are being victimised. Its sod all to do with their bad attitude, time-keeping, lack of ability etc to do their job. That all seems to be pushed to one side and right away you are victimising them for their colour/sexuality/gender/disability. It causes real fear because apart from anything else, such an allegation can ruin lives (I know this for a fact but thats another story)

 

What pizzes me off most is that a) I can no longer hand on heart say I would employ "someone with an ism" just in case they make an allegation (ridiculous, I know, and I can't believe I'm typing this) and b) that I would be too afraid to challenge "someone with an ism" if they did something wrong - even if it was really wrong. And more importantly c) the people that do this kind of thing make it so much harder for those who really do suffer for their beliefs, orientation or whatever who do have a REAL issue.

 

If this offends, I'm sorry - i've tried to post this several times but have never known the right words to use. I feel I should type to explain more but as you may be able to tell, its a very sensitive area for me...

[Red Rotties]

greyhound pal I am often the same when it comes to writing it down, it comes across differentlt that the spoken word.

 

I cringe at many things

 

My latest worry is the new maternity rules for employers and employees.

 

For years women have fought for equal rights and pay in the work place, as things were finally coming to right, although not everywhere, the matenity rights change. I wonder why any company would now employ a woman of childbearing age that "may" need the next 12 months off to look after their new baby whilst as employer you have to pay them maternity pay and employ someone to do their job for the next 12 months, and now the men want the same right with paternity leave too. A hundred years of fighting written out in a few years.

 

Good job I am not an employer as I am sure taking my views I would be accused of a ism when I wouldn't employ women that would be "likely" to need time off to have a family!

[BOB]

My grandma said that I should always treat people as I would like to be treated and that's how I 'try' to behave, don't always succeed, obviously!

 

 

Wise old Grandma's - mine used to say that too, now I find myself passing it on to my son.

[Helly]

Wise old Grandma's - mine used to say that too, now I find myself passing it on to my son.

 

mine said 'speak as you find' but in this day of political correctness for everything, it gets me in terrible lumber I no longer share my thoughts and views. its easier that way

[scotslass]

You sound a bit like me, my happiest times at work are sharing the more inane sides of being pc with my boss who thinks a bit like I do. I like your description of yourself, it is very me.

 

I have come to realise (as an adult raised Irish in a very traditional home, but rather strangely with parents who were shopkeepers) that my upbringing was unconventional in an Irish sense as I grew up with no prejudices to what I enountered, the one thing I didn't encounter was alternative sexuality and my upbringing gave me the skills to learn that that too was fine.

 

Well, needless to say, I had the obligatory Irish granny or two. Growing up with an Orange uncle, a Catholic aunt, a mother with a gospel hall background, and a near-Communist Grandpa, we had no choice but to keep an open mind! Our house was filled with argument about politics, religion, and football. The orange uncle and Catholic aunt finally reconciled. The grandpa stuck to his principles but didn't like the results of 'communism in human hands', as he used to say. The women of my mother's generation were the strong ones; their men were the underlings. I learned that I didn't like that either. I do remember that arguments always ended in laughter, even if it was at the expense of one family member or another, and the fall-out never lasted long. Above all, we were taught, I think, never to take ourselves too seriously.

 

 

Have to disagree that is always the case. Someone I worked with was deeply ashamed of his 'urges' - he knew it was wrong but couldn't control his 'desires'. Because of the nature of this individual and his learning/mental capacity, its likely to be true in this case. However he knew it was 'wrong' and such desires drove him towards suicide Its like a lot of sexual violence - is it an urge or is it about power? (think there may be another thread there!) I believe its different in each case.

 

 

 

 

I don't know where I stand I was brought up in an area described at the time as Europes AIDS capital and there was literally prostitution right outside my front door. It was relatively multi-cultural and I think I just accepted it all. My father and his family were/are a bunch of bigotted orange men. My mothers family were 'open' and it was all about education and making your own decisions. I've always had an interest in people and diversity.

 

I hate pc-ness although I'm very socially aware although this is mostly down to my career choice than anything. I do get easily offended by specific words and connoations attached to hose words but I think its because I tend to know people who are behing teh labels and I really like the majority of them. My work life means I meet and deal with people who are classed by the majority as the shyte of society. And actually I prefer them to your average person because there heads are rarely up there own arse and they are more 'real'. I like real people and can't be bothered with pretention.

 

However I *may* now be classed as racist as i have quite extreme views on that issue. Although I amn't BNP (who I despise) or demanding anyone goes 'back to their own country', my views are this:

 

I am sick to death living in a society (or working in a workplace) where you are too scared to challenge anyone because they will use whatever their 'ism' could be to say they are being victimised. Its sod all to do with their bad attitude, time-keeping, lack of ability etc to do their job. That all seems to be pushed to one side and right away you are victimising them for their colour/sexuality/gender/disability. It causes real fear because apart from anything else, such an allegation can ruin lives (I know this for a fact but thats another story)

 

What pizzes me off most is that a) I can no longer hand on heart say I would employ "someone with an ism" just in case they make an allegation (ridiculous, I know, and I can't believe I'm typing this) and b) that I would be too afraid to challenge "someone with an ism" if they did something wrong - even if it was really wrong. And more importantly c) the people that do this kind of thing make it so much harder for those who really do suffer for their beliefs, orientation or whatever who do have a REAL issue.

 

If this offends, I'm sorry - i've tried to post this several times but have never known the right words to use. I feel I should type to explain more but as you may be able to tell, its a very sensitive area for me...

 

I agree, of course, about paedophiles being individual - I didn't mean to imply that all of them justified their urges, or rather the acting on them.

 

As a general observation, not aimed at anyone in particular, I hope my young brother and sister are never refused a job because of their colour, or the fear that they might play on it - as far as I know, it's never been a problem, despite the fact that they live in the Highlands in communities which are virtually all-white. Both have been brought up to realise that life is what you make it.

 

My brother moved primary schools aged 7, and swiftly got himself a reputation for being in the middle of things every time there was a bit of mischief in the playground. I remember our doting Ma worrying that he was being picked on by the the teacher because of his skin colour. The rest of the family assured her that her wee darling was in fact just a rascal and she should be grateful the teacher was sorting him out. My brother has grown into a father who takes the same robust attitude with his own little (mixed race) son and they've had no problems.

 

I do think it's tiresome when people harp on about their particular 'ism'. Life is funnier, as is humour, when it's spontaneous. I really don't want to be guarding my tongue the whole time, though obviously one has to on occasion, out of tact. I think I said already that I'm a feminist - but women's rights are no more important to me than children's rights, or human rights generally. I do want women to be respected, but I do have a sense of humour, I am strong enough to withstand a bit of piss-taking, and I give as good as I get.

 

That isn't the same as standing by listening to workmen making racist jokes about people who aren't there to defend themselves, mind you, which happens occasionally round here. I just don't find that funny, and feart though I might be, I speak up.

[greyhound pal]

As a general observation, not aimed at anyone in particular, I hope my young brother and sister are never refused a job because of their colour, or the fear that they might play on it - as far as I know, it's never been a problem, despite the fact that they live in the Highlands in communities which are virtually all-white. Both have been brought up to realise that life is what you make it.

 

You know this is my worst fear - that I ever actually do this I'd like to think that I wouldn't and that I would take anyone regardless on face value but I do really doubt myself these days. Its a real fear for me that I'll start to judge people on their isms. The first time I do it, I think it would be time for me to give it all up

 

I do think it's tiresome when people harp on about their particular 'ism'.

 

Oh god - me too! Being a single mum especially I remember getting very wound up at someone who constantly whinged on about how little they could do due to them being a single parent. I look on it the opposite and look at what I can do because I'm a single mum

[Alison]

I reflect upon this and related matters frequently. I don't have any answers and am not for one second putting these ponderings forward as being right or wrong - they don't even represent my own personal view as it happens, this is just stuff that keeps coming to the forefront of my mind each time I consider these issues.

 

Real life moves far faster than it does on Planet Alison by miles so please forgive me if my choice of terms is outdated, non-PC or inappropriate; I honestly don't wish to cause offence, far from it. I've put all the language that I suspect might be iffy in "inverted commas"

 

Waiver/advance apologies over and getting back to those ponderings I mentioned ......

 

I wonder whether some things are perceived as "choice" and therefore condemned, as opposed to others which are seen as things which we have no control over and somehow "forgiven" or understood.

 

You have no choice in terms of the colour of your skin or any other congenital matter and that is absolutely immutable, a fact.

I think it would be a universally accepted given that nobody would choose to develop an illness such as MS, diabetes or athritis.

I doubt that anyone would imagine that someone confined to a wheelchair as a consequence of an accident would have chosen to have that accident.

 

However.....being overweight - or the other extreme - anorexic. Surely that's just a matter of eating a few less pies the case of the former or eating a few more in the latter?

Being gay? Hypothetically speaking it's a "preference", something you have control over. You choose to "indulge that whim" or not.

Religion? Same. Nobody forces you be a Catholic or an adherent of Shinto.

Transvestites. Nobody forces a man to dress as a woman, it is his choice.

 

In short and just as an example, it would seem to be a universally accepted taboo to take the p*ss out of someone with spina bifida (victim - didn't choose that "affliction") but somehow ok to ridicule a transvestite (not a victim - nobody makes him wear women's clothes, he just chooses to do so and must accept the brickbats that come his way).

 

Lord alone knows if any of the foregoing makes sense but I divine a very distinct divide in opinion and attitude towards what is perceived as "choice" and "no choice" in the scheme of things.

Edited June 13, 2008 by Alison

[Happylittlegreensquirrel]

Is it just me that had to google the term BDSM ?

 

 

not only that when I googled the first time I left the D out and ended up with links to the British School of Motoring

 

 

I was more than a little confused I can tell you

[ReikiAnge]

:biglaugh:

 

Oh Sam, thank you. I was reading through this serious thread and then got to you and now I may need tena lady and have forgotten what I was going to say. Night

[redditchlady]

Is it just me that had to google the term BDSM ?

 

 

not only that when I googled the first time I left the D out and ended up with links to the British School of Motoring

 

 

I was more than a little confused I can tell you

 

 

 

 

 

Only you Sam.

 

:laugh:

[nouggatti]

greyhound pal I am often the same when it comes to writing it down, it comes across differentlt that the spoken word.

 

I cringe at many things

 

My latest worry is the new maternity rules for employers and employees.

 

For years women have fought for equal rights and pay in the work place, as things were finally coming to right, although not everywhere, the matenity rights change. I wonder why any company would now employ a woman of childbearing age that "may" need the next 12 months off to look after their new baby whilst as employer you have to pay them maternity pay and employ someone to do their job for the next 12 months, and now the men want the same right with paternity leave too. A hundred years of fighting written out in a few years.

 

Good job I am not an employer as I am sure taking my views I would be accused of a ism when I wouldn't employ women that would be "likely" to need time off to have a family!

 

In a way I'd disagree with you there regarding paternity leave, it annoys me that if I were to have children and my OH were to be a househusband, that he would not get the same benefit that I would if I were to be the housewife and stay home with my kids, why can't men be the ones to stay home for those months and get the benefit women do, if they choose to?

 

 

Is it just me that had to google the term BDSM ?

 

 

not only that when I googled the first time I left the D out and ended up with links to the British School of Motoring

 

 

I was more than a little confused I can tell you

 

 

I had to google as well Sam

[boosboss]

I wonder whether some things are perceived as "choice" and therefore condemned, as opposed to others which are seen as things which we have no control over and somehow "forgiven" or understood.

You have no choice in terms of the colour of your skin or any other congenital matter and that is absolutely immutable, a fact.

I think it would be a universally accepted given that nobody would choose to develop an illness such as MS, diabetes or athritis.

I doubt that anyone would imagine that someone confined to a wheelchair as a consequence of an accident would have chosen to have that accident.

However.....being overweight - or the other extreme - anorexic. Surely that's just a matter of eating a few less pies the case of the former or eating a few more in the latter?

Being gay? Hypothetically speaking it's a "preference", something you have control over. You choose to "indulge that whim" or not.

Religion? Same. Nobody forces you be a Catholic or an adherent of Shinto.

Transvestites. Nobody forces a man to dress as a woman, it is his choice.

In short and just as an example, it would seem to be a universally accepted taboo to take the p*ss out of someone with spina bifida (victim - didn't choose that "affliction") but somehow ok to ridicule a transvestite (not a victim - nobody makes him wear women's clothes, he just chooses to do so and must accept the brickbats that come his way).

Lord alone knows if any of the foregoing makes sense but I divine a very distinct divide in opinion and attitude towards what is perceived as "choice" and "no choice" in the scheme of things.

I'm not sure your idea of choice is the same as mine. Some of the examples given aren't as simple as choice, especially when they're controlled by your mental state. Is anorexia just about not eating enough, or rather more about how you see yourself, could obesety be just about eating too much or more about why you're overeating (assuming that's the cause and not a metabolic imbalance). Is being gay a preference or is your preference because you're gay? In other words is it also biological? Even religion, was the choice taken to believe or not with the teachings (even if those choices can be reclaimed)?

What I'm saying is that I don't think it's as simple to define things by choice or not.