ReikiAnge Posted June 9, 2008 Report Share Posted June 9, 2008 I know nothing about horses so read this with the aim of offering a more than anything but I was also wondering how well you know and trust these people. It might be correct that he's not right for you and vice versa, but is there any possibility they have seen a good opportunity to try to get a good horse cheaply to either keep for themselves or sell on? He's not been with them long has he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laura g Posted June 9, 2008 Report Share Posted June 9, 2008 I know booger all about horse training. just picked up on the thread because of the interesting title! Reading what you said, have to say my initial thoughts ran along the same lines as Jackie and Sarah and Ange. I am a suspicious and cynical individual at heart. And i've been a bookdealer long enough to know that there are people who manipulate and take advantage of situations in order to further their own cause. How does what the people at the yard say correllate with your gut reaction and take on the issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supafrisk Posted June 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2008 (edited) My head's in a mess, really it is I have spoken to someone who does 'know' them and apparently they have done this before with other horses One interesting thing I did remember, when I was giving Thug a carrot and scratching his nearside, the woman said he guards his offside and won't let you muck out, groom him etc. As I was scratching him, she said "Now do the other side' and instead of changing sides I just slipped my hand under his cheek and scratched the offside whilst leaning heavily against his nearside and he didn't flinch or tell me to get off. In all honesty, yes he *may* be too much for me. I saw his potential the day I clapped eyes on him for the first time, I didn't need anyone else to point it out to me. Yes, his bolshiness has a *lot* to do with my sister who is frightened of him. I'm not. I am aware of what he can do at his worst but that does not make me frightened of him. I am starting to feel warning bells regarding this yard but so many people recommended it. Unfortunately the same people are now backtracking furiously and saying "Yeah, well they did this and that". (Did I mention these people now tell me they do a bit of dealing? ) Also there was a fair amount of interest around his stable yesterday, and a man there who I'm sure I've seen at Kenilworth horse fair and Henley and I'm sure is a dealer. More tellingly, one of the people up there who has met Thug and knows these people has said "Don't do it, Thug is beautiful and he's yours so don't sell him to them, they are trying it on". This is a person who rides their more (for want of a better word) *awkward* horses on a regular basis and I would say this person is somewhere between an intermediate and advanced rider. The problem I now have is that he is stuck at this yard because he will not box, probably because of the way he was boxed the other week. I do not think their assessment of Thug was fair, he will have been with them 2 weeks tomorrow and I think that's a bit fast to be making judgements. I also question why they've been lunging him over poles As for changing his name to Thomas, I am fecking LIVID. If I wish to change his name then I will change it. The more I think of it, the more it makes me wonder why they would change his name like that, unless they thought they would be successful in buying him. Yes I can come across as a bit gutless but normally it's because I am self conscious about my riding in the prescence of others, it doesn't mean I lack confidence. (I used to ride everywhere on my Bridge mare without a saddle because I couldn't afford one, and I'd only had her a couple of months at the time). I think they may have picked up on this and that fact that as I am a lardy arse that I obviously don't ride regularly. They went to great lengths to tell me all about a woman that fractured 4 ribs in their school last year and how she lost all confidence on a horse that just flipped out of its normal self for 5 minutes and went on to add that Thug may well end up hospitalising me if I don't sell. He's my boy, he's not for sale. IF. IF he is too much for me then I will investigate loaning him to a competition home, but he is still my baby and to sell him would be akin to selling Willow or my daughter. I am going to sit on the fence for now, monitor his progress and treatment and if at any point I think that it is detrimental to his wellbeing, I will have to beg the guy 20 miles down the road who does join up/natural horsemanship/roundpen if he will come and help me box Thug. I should have done this from the start but I couldn't afford £200 a week and I still can't but I see no other way forward at this moment. Edited June 9, 2008 by supafrisk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudi Posted June 9, 2008 Report Share Posted June 9, 2008 I know booger all about horse training. just picked up on the thread because of the interesting title! Reading what you said, have to say my initial thoughts ran along the same lines as Jackie and Sarah and Ange. I am a suspicious and cynical individual at heart. And i've been a bookdealer long enough to know that there are people who manipulate and take advantage of situations in order to further their own cause. How does what the people at the yard say correllate with your gut reaction and take on the issue? Hi I don't know about horses either but, like the others, felt suspicious of the motives of the people involved, but didn't know whether to say or not Is there anyone else you can go to for help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supafrisk Posted June 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2008 (edited) Sorry if this sounds hard and callous but it does sound as tho he is a lad who throws his weight around and bullies humans so needs a strong rider/andler to bring out his potential. If you are not a very brave and strong rider then he is not the horse for you and could make you lose your nerve for ever. If you send him away for training and they get the better of him and overcome his tantrums so that he shows what he can do there is no guarantee that he will do it for you.He sounds very clever so he will know if he can frighten you and will do it all the more if he succeeds. Put your feelings for him aside and let him go to someone that will give him a good full life and let him enjoy living up to his potential. That sort of horse are not happy just hacking and get stroppier with frustration. With the money you get for him you could but a quieter,more easy going hack that you could enjoy riding. That way you both are happy. I have seen so many unhappy combinations because the rider/owner is overhorsed but won't let go .It is in both your interests to let someone have him who will let him be himself and enjoy competing and using his potential. Good luck with whatever you decide,but you make the decision. x I might point out that Glynn, although section A was a stallion for 10 years until being cut a year before we bought him (we didn't know that when I started paying for him) and this woman was visibly shocked and assumed that Glynn would be a monster. Glynn is a handful, yes, in retrospect probably not a first or 2nd pony for a child (he's my daughter's first) and he's a bolshy willfull little sh*t and she worships the bones of him. He would never bomb off with her, in fact it's hard to get him going faster than a trot but if you give him an inch he will bite, throw his weight around, lean against you whilst you're trying to lead etc and he's never got the better of me or my daughter, my sister maybe but just because they act like bullies doesn't always mean they need a strong handler. Ellie is 7. Interestingly all the things Thug has done there (rearing, chasing etc) he's never done at our yard with the exception of trying to chase Willow. He's never herded me or Ellie. It could be as the woman says that he was always in his comfort zone and he is reacting now because he is out of it but when I have been to see him, he's always been tacked up in the stable, same old Thug as always, not this firebreathing monster that he's purported to be. I have never had the opportunity to watch them work him, I turned up last week when she had two youngsters and Thug to lunge and she said she was saving Thug til last and I got the impression she didn't want me around when she did it so I left. The person who told me not to sell Thug and who goes up there regularly told me that last week Thug was smooching with one of the grooms, he had his head resting on the groom's shoulder - the actions of a bolshy arrogant monster? I think not. Edited June 9, 2008 by supafrisk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supafrisk Posted June 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2008 I was hoping Lesley Trawllm Farm would post as I know she's probably broken/reschooled a dearth of horses that others have chucked labels on over the years, some justified and others not Then again, she's probably read my posts and thought what did Thug do in a past life to end up with such a shyte owner as me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laura g Posted June 9, 2008 Report Share Posted June 9, 2008 (edited) My head's in a mess, really it is He's my boy, he's not for sale. Your head might be in a mess but you know what you DONT want and that's a start. Get him out of that environment, where you dont know what is happening to your horse and why, and people are coming and going and you dont know why .... whatever you decide then you can do it. You're right about dealers - any kind of dealer - picking up on weaknesses. It's what we do. A debate over whether its necessarily wrong would rage forever. Suffice to say we all have standards / morals / ethics / whatever and we all have to sleep at night. Some people need more than less. Or perhaps in your case, perhaps convince themselves that they are doing you / your horse a favour, as they know better. As I said before, I know booger all about horse training. But re: your comments about Thug's being too much for you and being too bolshy and untapped potential: well you can't beat yourself up for that. Convert Thug into my lurcher Oz and you can equally argue that a 'better' owner would have him put bang to rights by now, and probably an obedience champion at that!! Does that make me any less 'worthy' of owning him? Edited June 9, 2008 by laura g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesB Posted June 9, 2008 Report Share Posted June 9, 2008 I don't count myself as an expert, far from it, but I've had horses for the last 20 years and I know that when I've ignored my instincts and gone with what someone else was pushing me to do, or was reassuring me it was 'the right thing to do' I've regretted it. I wouldn't leave my horse somewhere that discouraged me from seeing what they did with him and how they were around him. All my instincts say get him out of there, it's not a good place and they are not good people. I'd echo what Sarah said and get someone who understands intelligent horsemanship to take a look at him, and give you a chance of making a reasoned decision about whether you are right for each other. Either they are dodgy and can see a 'saleable' horse when they see one, or they have one approach and every horse has to fit it, or be labelled difficult or dangerous just because he doesn't understand what the humans want from him. I think the responsibility lies with the humans to explain it in a way the horse can understand, not the other way around. Too many people (and I include myself in that ) are too busy talking 'at' horses instead of listening to what the horse is trying to tell them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradders Posted June 9, 2008 Report Share Posted June 9, 2008 Now had a chance to read everything properly Very dubious about their motives/methods/comments made to you. It could be that they have your best interests at heart, but, it could also be that they see the chance of making a quick buck. This off side business - if he has been flinging himself about a bit, could it be that he has twinged something and is just sore? Do you know a back person that could have a quick look? Is his eyesight OK? We have an elderly mare who has become blind in one eye - she guards that side. My gut reaction to all this is to try him with someone different who shows more empathy, but is not afraid to put firm boundaries in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay1 Posted June 9, 2008 Report Share Posted June 9, 2008 Hi I have a friend who lives just outside Stratford upon Avon who knows all about "awkward" horses and she knows everyone who is worth and not worth knowing in the horsey world up and around your way. It was thanks to her I helped stop a super pony falling into the wrong hands who would have just used him as a jumping machine and I mean top level junior jumping and he came down here to Devon and has had a wonderful working life in a couple of lovely family homes. I will pm you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah_H Posted June 9, 2008 Report Share Posted June 9, 2008 Having spent 5 years of Easta's life with her out in loan homes as I thought she was too good,too much and too talented for me I can say it was stupid! My trainer said to me, does a horse wake up on its 3rd birthday and decide I'd like a saddle this year so we can go jumping together? No its still a horse you need to understand the horse before you start riding. Perhaps going down the psychology route and understand what makes you tick as well as Thug may improve things for both of you, there is no rule written down either that says you must ride your horse 5 times a week so don't bow to peer pressure. I missed out on so much with Easta because I lacked self belief, lacked the ability to see what she needed not what I perceived she needed. And believe me when I was cnatering 10m circles with no reins and whooping like a loony cowboy yesterday i was the happiest person alive! Take a step back from the focus on riding and work on the ground with him, I promise you theres something amiss with that for ihm to ride how he does and I am sure with the right help you can over come it and move forward together Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah_H Posted June 9, 2008 Report Share Posted June 9, 2008 Just to add... if he was mine he'd be out there this weekend, as soon as I could get a box. Chucked in a field and left for a month before I did anything with him. I can ask my trainer who he knows in your area, but they would want to work with you and Thug, give you exercises to get you sorted. The off side thing is poor backing, the lady who's horse went bpnkers and injured her. I bet you £1000 that horse didn't have its ground work sorted and if the ground work was established then he'd haven ot done it. The dangerous horses aren't the ones like Thug there the ones that pent everything up and then just let rip, cause theres nothing you can do. Thug sounds great an expressive entertaining character, he has the survival instinct in him hence he takes no crap off these people. Just take him back, have him with you. Your his Mum and you can and do have it in you to work with him!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supafrisk Posted June 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2008 (edited) I think I'm going to have to have a look into livery yards around my area, I don't want thug to come back to my yard as we don't have the facilities here to approach it correctly. We have no school or enclosed area for starters Secondly as said before, I have no box/trailer and no way of towing one. Thirdly, if you can imagine it took about an hour and a half to load him two weeks ago and that was after two lots of sedative, breaking a chifney they'd put on him and he'd been "shown who's boss" as they put it. If I look back now, there was a point when he was rearing up and going over backwards that I said to them "This isn't happening, if this continues he will end up breaking something" and I was told they had to continue and they wouldn't give up until he was in the box, as if they did I would NEVER get him in a box again. Can you visualise getting him out of the place in one piece because at the moment I can't Edited June 9, 2008 by supafrisk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesB Posted June 10, 2008 Report Share Posted June 10, 2008 If I look back now, there was a point when he was rearing up and going over backwards that I said to them "This isn't happening, if this continues he will end up breaking something" and I was told they had to continue and they wouldn't give up until he was in the box, as if they did I would NEVER get him in a box again.Can you visualise getting him out of the place in one piece because at the moment I can't Emma please try and find someone with a more sympathetic approach than putting him in position where the only option he can see is to rear and go over backwards You *can* help him have a better experience of loading and handling, if you don't you are probably right, and he will hurt himself or someone else, and then how would you feel. There's a list of Intelligent Horsemanship people here, is there anyone near you that you could have a chat with? Linky Is there a yard near enough to walk him to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabina Posted June 10, 2008 Report Share Posted June 10, 2008 I would contact some of the natural horsemanship organisations as they often have students needing project horses or horses for lecture demos to get you the help you need at a lower cost. I would also try a calming supplement magnesium can be very beneficial. I dont think anyone can judge your horse in two weeks but i think if i were you i would give him 6 months and then make a decision. I wouldt give it longer than that as if it isnt working he is getting bigger, stronger and more opinionated (and time runs on he will be 7 and unbroken). it isnt that a horse is too good for someone but a horse - rider relationship is like a marriage and sometimes you just arent suited. Im having a similar dilemma with my 3 year old who is now backed and has been an angel but im not sure we are right for each other, time will tell. forgot to mention im a bhs riding instructor but the above is just one opinion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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