Need Thug Horse Advice Please

[supafrisk]

I really don't know where to start really

 

I think deep down I knew when he went off for breaking that I had possibly bitten off more than I could chew.

 

Deep breath...

I went to see Thug today to see how his breaking was progressing. As some of you will already know, he hasn't had much done with him (he's 6) and I have a dominant sister who has interfered with everything so it's been a huge step just getting him away from that environment.

I am starting to feel a failure though and I am ashamed that I didn't do something sooner with him.

The first question Alyson put to me when I got there was when he'd ben 'cut', so I was able to tell her that he was done at 18 months and that the breeder had assured me that both lots of lovespuds had been removed. This was met with a bit of frowning and Alyson went on to explain that the behaviour he was exhibiting was more like a stallion or a rig than a gelding.

They say he tries to dominate everything and will 'guard' his offside and gets sh*tty if you do stuff to him on that side, even stroking him and will swing away from you and force his nearside to you, amongst other stuff that I will remember later.

I will try to post what they've said, bear with me as I may forget bits and remember them in an hour or so.

Basically they say they have never come up against a horse like Thug (although they've changed his name to Thomas as they don't like calling him Thug).

They asked me if he'd previously been broken and I was able to confirm he hasn't (my sister's too frit of him to attempt it).

They said that basically with him you take one step forward and then have to take another three forward just to keep up with him, he's uber intelligent and they attempted lunging him which turned into a farce so they tried him on two lines (something they normally do 4 weeks down the line from lunging) and it was if he'd been doing that for weeks.

If he doesn't want to do something, he fights. They popped him over some cavaletti, he didn't want to do it so he scooped up the poles with his front feet and threw them around the school.

He has also chased Nick from the stable into the school and when lunging he has come in from the cicle with the intent of hurting them.

He has no fear and I saw that when loading him into the box nearly 2 weeks ago, he threw himself backwards and could have run away at any opportunity across a 40 acre field but didn't.

They have assured me today that although he may just 'click' weeks from now, he will never be 'just a hack' and that because he is so intelligent there is no threshold for any possibility of competing, in fact, they've said that he needs and will need work every day at competition level and I know I can't do that with him.

Alyson and Nick have both asked me what I thought Thug is worth moneywise and I said I'd never thought of Thug in monetary terms.

They said "when he was throwing himself around yesterday and bust a saddle and bridle then he wasn't worth the price of a pizza but last week when Nick was lying across him and he was going round the school nicely he was worth a lot of money" (Whatever that means).

They've asked me how much I want for him and I'm confused.

Okay, I saw the gleam in Nick's eye when they asked how much I wanted and I knew from the moment Nick clapped eyes on Thug that he definitely liked what he saw. I know Nick has said from day one that he is itching to get on him and ride him and when I said no to selling him but I would consider loaning him to a competition home, Alyson immediately said "Well please consider Nick" and tbh I think Thug may turn out to be more of a man's horse than a woman's, if that makes sense.

I am so bloody confused right now, I don't know what to do so I am going to see how he goes for the next month or so.

I have told Mum what they've said and immediately she's said "Well if you were to sell him, couldn't you get another one with the money that is more suitable for you" but I don't know if I can give him up - obviously I can't afford another without selling him but at least if he's on loan I get the pleasure of seeing him achieve his potential with another jockey and I could still probably exercise him.

So I suppose what I'm really asking for is advice from those of you that may have dealt with similar

P.S. we did discuss getting the vet out to check Thug's testosterone levels too and I've told her to do it to put their minds at ease.

Forgot to mention he also rears in the school when asked to do something he doesn't want to do and throws himself over backwards

Edited June 8, 2008 by supafrisk

[greys mum]

Emma, I'm no expert and I do hope that someone will come along soon. But saw that 16 peeps had looked (including me) and there were no replies. It's not that we don't care, but, perhaps we don't know what the answer is.

 

Would Nick be willing to have him on loan until you all know what is what?

 

Whatever you do decide, I know it will be with Thomas' future wellbeing the most important thing.

 

ETA. That he sounds like a 2 year old having tantrums.

Edited June 8, 2008 by greys mum

[BillyMalc]

Emma, I'm no expert and I do hope that someone will come along soon. But saw that 16 peeps had looked (including me) and there were no replies. It's not that we don't care, but, perhaps we don't know what the answer is.

 

Would Nick be willing to have him on loan until you all know what is what?

 

Whatever you do decide, I know it will be with Thomas' future wellbeing the most important thing.

 

ETA. That he sounds like a 2 year old having tantrums.

 

Just to say that I'm one of those who has looked but not replied before. Aside from the fact whether or not you'd want to part with Thomas Thug, would you feel that Nick would be the right person to take him on?

 

I really hope for both of you that you will find a decision that you're both happy with

[EAD]

Not qualified to give advise but hope whatever you decide is best for Thug and you

[Lainey]

I have known a few geldings that acted as if they were a rig, but they were just geldings.

He has obviously shown a lot of potential, so whatever you decide- dont get ripped off. ask an expert for advice on price if you sell him

If he needs a competition home, and you manage to find one on a loan basis, i very much doubt that they would want him ridden by anyone else, as it could hamper his progress and/or teach him bad habits.

I was a groom for years and worked in showjumping (grade A) and international carriage driving, and from that experience i can honestly say that any top class horse has balls of steel and an arrogant bolshy attitude, those that dont have it are never quite as good. you just have to know how to handle them, or find a person who they 'click' with. If they are 'special' then they know it before you do

 

I know it will be hard but i would advise that you sell him if you are unable to ride him to competition standard, or, loan him out on a legal contract, but dont have expectations of being able to ride him. also consider what may happen if you keep him, such as boredom and worsening behaviour. It may help if you draw up a list of pro's and con's for each option available to you

It will certainly be a very hard decision to make

[Pendlewitch]

Firstly you have to find out if he is a rig, then consider the options for dealing with this, rigcalm is supposed to work well. Have you had a feel round his bits at all, if anything is retained it needs sorting out.

 

If he isn't a rig then Thug is a naughty bully who knows his own strength and is not afraid to use it! Now I'm not in beating horses up but one like him needs putting in his place very firmly and being ridden by a strong, sympathetic rider. He will probably always need very strong boundaries as to what is allowed behaviour and what is not but at the moment he sounds as though he is having temper tantrums and such tantrums in a big strong horse are hard to deal with.

 

Horses broken late can be very opinionated, they can become a little set in their ways and don't like being made to do things they don't want to and taking them out of this mind set is a long job.

 

You obviously care deeply about this horse, could you just sit on the fence for a while and see how he develops? It's early days in his breaking and maybe too soon to make a decision on his future. If he comes good then you could consider loaning him for whatever discipline he is best at and become a proud owner of a super horse who is performing well for his jockey and you could still have the opportunity of riding him occasionally.

 

I hope you get him sorted eventually and make a decision you are happy with!

[Clare]

Oh Supafrisk I am sorry Thug is giving you a tricky time

 

I haven't dealt with similar as such, I did buy a mare that was dangerous but it was not just behavioural and sadly she was a danger to everyone and we had to let her go, but I do know that handling and riding a horse like that is emotionally draining and no fun.

 

First thing that sprung to mind, and please don't take this the wrong way but do you know and trust Alyson and Nick? If so I guess their evaluation of Thug's behaviour and future needs are an honest one.

 

It will be interesting to see what the results of the test are in regard to him possibly being a rig, as that could explain a lot of his behaviour and give you hope that his behaviour can be improved medically.

 

My gut reaction is to say hold tight and see how he goes in the next few months. If he has learnt that agression and bolshy behaviour gets him what he wants it will take a while for him learn that at his new place this behaviour doesn't work, and with the training he will be getting now it may well help him learn some boundaries and get his brain ticking

 

Even a compeition horse needs to be controlled and willing so if they think he has the potential to reach that he may be able to mix competing and hacking. He sounds fearless so could be a great hack

Edited June 8, 2008 by Clare

[nouggatti]

No experience of horses here Emma (apart from a nasty accident that left me off work for three months )

 

Anyway that aside, want to wish you the best of luck with your decision, I'd wonder too if you could see how Thug develops with Alison and Nick and consider a loan agreement etc?

 

best wishes

[Bradders]

Oh dear a fellow horse dilemma person Welcome to the club!

 

Sorry, but am at work so have had to scan through your original post - will try to read it properly later.

 

With regards to Thug's riggish behaviour - Nemo was cut as a youngster, but even now, at the grand old age of 26 still behaves like a stallion - he protects his mare from horses in the neighbouring fields, shows off like it is going out of fashion and has an enormous stallion pile of droppings in his field! Some geldings behave that way - it made him an entertaining ride on occasions! I would echo Clare's sentiment - how well do you know these people? At 6 he is probably testing the waters anyway, but it will not have been that obvious until you started to ask him to work At the risk of sounding horrible, are they trying to unsettle you in the hope of getting a superb horse at a bargain price?

 

Can you get someone else in to see him?

 

Search your heart - and listen to it - if you think you and Thug are not right for each other, then, hard as it is, the decision is made. If on the other hand you think that you are meant to be, stick with it. Brace yourself for some hard times in the next few months, but focus on the end result

 

I am torturing myself over Rolo, but I know in my heart of hearts that we are no longer right for each other - I am holding him back, and he now needs someone much bolder than me.

 

In the words of Doris Day " Que sera, sera"

[JACKYSIAN]

I'm no expert and wouldn't even begin to give you advise on what to do...but can I just need to tell you something. When I first got Kane and was having major issues with him I took him to someone to be re-backed professionally, within 2 days she told me that I needed to sell Kane because 'he was always going to be too strong for me and would kill me one day'. She offered me £1k for him...to 'take him off my hands!' This sent me reeling and I went into his stable to sit with him, unknown to the woman!!! She then went into the stable next to me to tack up another horse and was chatting to her friend, I over heard her say that cob in the next stable was a 'prize winner' she then said put a kid on him and he'll jump 5foot easily and that he was the best Irish Cob she'd seen in years!!!!!!!!!!!!! From then on I was determinded he was MY horse and that she'd obviously seen the potential in him and if she could see it then I could too. I'm afraid I'll never trust anyone's opinions on my horses future again, hopefully if you trust these people and know them well then they are honest but otherwise I'd most definately be getting a second or third opinion.

 

My heart goes out to you, I know exactly how you are feeling. I am a success story of having the 'horse from hell' and I just hope that Thug proves them wrong for you too.

[Judith gsd]

Blimey he is a feisty boy! But I presume all medical problems have been checked out, teeth, back and of course the castration operation?

 

I am a qualified BHS Instructor, but I qualified a long while ago and no longer ride, so I am no expert either. I wonder if it is worth getting a BHS qualified person to assess him would help, someone who doesn't buy and sell horses - not even a bit? He needs to be safe in whatever surroundings, for himself and anyone around him. None of us on here would let a dog behave badly and not try to see why, so I can see your concerns, he is a lot bigger.

 

I think with horses, emotionally it is soooo hard because they are our pets, but they are also there to work for/with us. Tough call, I don't envy you. But I do sympathise and wish you well with whatever you decide. Don't rush, like the other peeps on here have said, not just for his and your emotions, but financially too.

[Jay1]

If you know and trust this couple why don't you let them loan him, have it drawn up legally. I bred a cob and I have had so much fun over the years watching him compete with his "loan" mum and also learnt alot about showing, dressage etc. Get yourself something on loan if you can't afford to buy one without selling Thug. That way everybody is happy, hopefully.

[Nettie]

Emma, I'm no expert and it doesn't sound as though you have to make a decision right at this moment. Why not wait a couple of months or until the end of the summer to see how he's progressing before deciding whether you need to sell him or put in out on loan. I know someone that has homebred 3 day eventers but doesn't ride them. He follows their progress at events and there is something satisfying when the horse and rider are announced and then the 'owned by'. Last time I heard there was a possiblity one would be in Beijing for the Olympics but not ridden by an British rider. You might not be able to ride and compete with him but you love him and can be proud of how well he might do with someone else on board.

 

As previously said, if you do want a horse you can hack out on, would it be possible to loan a horse yourself.

[ranirottie]

Sorry if this sounds hard and callous but it does sound as tho he is a lad who throws his weight around and bullies humans so needs a strong rider/andler to bring out his potential. If you are not a very brave and strong rider then he is not the horse for you and could make you lose your nerve for ever. If you send him away for training and they get the better of him and overcome his tantrums so that he shows what he can do there is no guarantee that he will do it for you.He sounds very clever so he will know if he can frighten you and will do it all the more if he succeeds. Put your feelings for him aside and let him go to someone that will give him a good full life and let him enjoy living up to his potential. That sort of horse are not happy just hacking and get stroppier with frustration. With the money you get for him you could but a quieter,more easy going hack that you could enjoy riding. That way you both are happy. I have seen so many unhappy combinations because the rider/owner is overhorsed but won't let go .It is in both your interests to let someone have him who will let him be himself and enjoy competing and using his potential. Good luck with whatever you decide,but you make the decision. x

[Sarah_H]

I've read this post three times now and initially thought what a crock of **** you're being told.

 

If a horse is backed properly then these types of issues don't occur. If he was mine I would remove him fro mthe yard, get someone who knows about intelligent horsemanship out and assess him then go from there.

 

There isn't a quick fix but I do think he needs to be mentally challenged and thats not necessarily riding him everyday and riding him hard everyday.

 

I would want another opinion if he was mine and from someone who knows a little more about horse psychology for starters.

 

Nearly ever horse I've had was given to me as unrideable, including my advanced eventer... and this stems from a fundemental lack of understanding of the horse as an individual because he/she doesn't fit into our way of doing things.

 

Sorry if that upseets some people here but having seen what can be done and where I've come in my learning I'd never go back to the UK traditional methods... the phrase that springs to mind is a bad workman blames his tools in this case Thug.