Should Ivf Be On The Nhs?

[mooandboo]

Oh and please lay off the dog/child adoption comparisons, now matter how much my dogs mean to me (and they mean the world) frankly I find it insulting.

Thank you, I couldn't quite word it properly so didn't but you just have, perfectly

[elricc]

its hard to adopt a little baby yes, but not an older child who has been waitting in foster care.

Everything costs in this world, and you have to put a relative value on it, if I couldn't have children and I really wanted tthem I would still see 3, 4 , 5 K as a small amount of money if it would provide me with what I longed for.

[Wendbert]

Whilst I appreciate that everyone has different opinions, and of course everyone is entitled to their opinion, I'm just going to politely remind everyone that this is a very emotive subject for many people. Therefore, please respect the sensitivity of other members

[BillyMalc]

Well I did start my post by saying that I expected my views on this to be unpopular but

 

Yes I do so love this answer to everything IVF related...just go and adopt, simple, and problem solved

 

What's the sarcasm about? I always wonder what it is that makes people reject the option of adopting a child and wanting one of their own instead. Like elricc says above, there are plenty of older children who don't get adopted readily. Do they not deserve that loving home of their own? What annoys me is all this going on about everybody who wants one needing to get a child of their own by all means possible. That's is not about wanting to to give to that child, that's fulfilling your own needs at all costs.

 

I am in a very fortunate position in that I have no desire whatsoever to have children. It is an emotive subject and I have spoken to people who were dealing with the fact that they wanted but couldn't have children, and of course I empathise with the emotions that they are going through. Should my feelings about raising a child ever change though, I know I will do research into adopting a child.

 

Oh and please lay off the dog/child adoption comparisons, now matter how much my dogs mean to me (and they mean the world) frankly I find it insulting.

 

I am sorry but that is your opinion - and that of mooandboo, and I am sure many others - and you are entitled to it. I however am entitled to my opinion and I would hope expressing it. I personally find it insulting how our species is so full of self importance that it seems to think that our wants and needs override those of every other living creature on this planet. But yeah, that is a whole different story in itself so I best not expand on that. Doesn't mean I'd not be happy to have a controversial debate about that though

 

Wendbert - I'm trying to express myself in a way that takes other people's feelings into account. Like I've said before, if people feel insulted or aggrieved in any other way then I apologise. I don't apologise for how I feel though, and I would hope that I am allowed to express my feelings as well, even though they are vastly different from anyone's here. But I guess that's why we're having a 'Contro' forum

[KathyM]

In todays world £2-£3k is not a lot of money

 

No. In *your* world it might not be! And we're not really talking £2-£3 grand, we're talking up to £15 grand.

 

Someone before said the NHS was started to prevent poor people missing out on lifesaving treatment. This may have been part of it, but I've just done a big essay on the founding principles of the NHS and these were:

 

A service that was free at the point of delivery

A universal service, available to everyone

An optimum service, equal to all.

 

Now when you start rationing, you break those founding principles. I'm not saying that it's right or wrong, but it's still broken. It's not free if some have to pay, it's not optimum if people aren't getting the standard of care they need, it's not universal if it's only open to some and it's not equal if only the rich get the treatment.

 

ETA: Noone's really answered the questions on other life "choices". If we're going to say childbearing is a choice, then so is smoking, drinking, and eating yourself into hospital. Maybe we shouldn't treat any illness caused by life "choices"?

Edited January 16, 2008 by KathyM

[greytgirl]

<P>

But the inability to conceive *can* be due to health issues <IMG style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: middle" alt=unsure.gif src="style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif" border=0 emoid=""> and I would wager that any treatment needed to cure the underlying health issues causing the infertility would cost more than IVF as they can be so complex. <BR><BR>Depression because of circumstances can quite easily become an "actual clinical mental illness" if left untreated, surely. So what do you do - treat with counselling in the early stages (albeit paid by the NHS) or leave it until you're dealing with somebody who is suicidal (and will undoubtedly still require NHS support)??

<BR><BR>spot on! I am one of these, I often feel suicidal..only one thing stops me, my 7 year old daughter..<BR>Believe me I fully agree about life threatening conditions being a priority, my Mum was seriously ill for YEARS before she passed in September..had leg amputation, triple heart bypass, due for kidney dialysis and so on...<BR>so I truly feel this IS more important Yes, BUT it doesnt mean that people should have to pay for the chance of a child IF its due to health reasons..and on the adoption front as to why people want to have there own as opposed to adopt..is because, well for me, I WANT to be pregnant..Not just the end result, I WANT my child to grow and move inside me, I want to give birth to My child and give it the life I can...or yes I would adopt and even if I do have another, Im not saying I would rulke that out in the future.<BR>The IVF process... EVERYTHING included, the best chance you can have can cost around £10,000...how long would that take the average couple to save?? and as someone stated before, people in the situation to have to have IVF have probably not got time on their side..like us, we have been trying for 6 years, this year I am 32..how much longer do I wait..do I start saving now? and in say 2-3 years when I have that money..then start IVF, I will be 35ish? and my natural ability to concieve has naturally decreased, as it does from the age of 28!! </P>

<P>I can see it from both sides, but unfortunately for me Im in the position and not to sound patronising, No one fully understands what it does to you not to be able to concieve when ALL you want is a baby..its on your mind from the minute you wake to minute you sleep..it rules your life!</P>

[Sherlock Bones]

As someone who, potentially, will face either the choice of IVF or adoption, I find some of the comments from those who, presumably, CAN conceive quite bewildering.

 

The feelings that you get when someone tells you that they are pregnant are the most awful awful feelings inside. How do you become happy for someone when you envy them so much you want to cry?

 

The comparison of dogs/children as Teg quite rightly says is insulting. I'm sure that from reading her comments she's also had to suffer "oh it doesn't matter, you have your dogs as family, anyway don't you". That single comment cuts through you like a knife... it rips you apart and, quite honestly, it's a wonder we don't go home and resent our dogs because they ARENT the children we long for. Or there's the lovely, "no, she doesn't have kids, she has dogs..." oh great, that's ok then, isn't it.

 

so we move on to well if you can't afford it, adopt. but hang on... what about the emotion of it not being your child - of someone else creating that child - have you ever had to consider whether emotionally you can actually do that - when what you want most in the world is a child within your own body??? It's not about being a mother - we can all be mothers - it's about creating a living being yourself. Teg's sarcasm is, imho, because she has probably heard that comment over and over and over again and there is no response we can give that anyone will understand or appreciate, and tbh I'd have phrased a response the same way.

 

IVF has become, because of technology, a woman's RIGHT. You can't possibly possibly understand or begin to empathise with how non child bearing women feel unless you are one. don't even try. if you choose not to have children, it is totally and utterly your choice but you cannot simply ever understand our feelings and you won't know what it's like to cry in a shop looking at a strangers newborn child for no apparent reason other than you can't help yourself.

 

Personally i have issues with IVF being offered to known current drug users. But i have no issue with IVF being offered to anyone who is capable of becoming a responsible mother. That includes ex drug users.

 

Yes this is a contro forum, but contro really doesn't mean insulting. It's open discussion and I can't see it going that way at the moment - I am insulted, I'm sorry but i am.

[snow]

Perhaps some reminders are needed - this forum is in "chats" it may well be called contraversial but that merely defines the types of topics we chat about or discuss in this area - it is not and never has been a debate forum.

 

That is perhaps something that needs to be remembered when posting in here.

[Jemimap]

As someone who, potentially, will face either the choice of IVF or adoption, I find some of the comments from those who, presumably, CAN conceive quite bewildering.

 

The feelings that you get when someone tells you that they are pregnant are the most awful awful feelings inside. How do you become happy for someone when you envy them so much you want to cry?

 

The comparison of dogs/children as Teg quite rightly says is insulting. I'm sure that from reading her comments she's also had to suffer "oh it doesn't matter, you have your dogs as family, anyway don't you". That single comment cuts through you like a knife... it rips you apart and, quite honestly, it's a wonder we don't go home and resent our dogs because they ARENT the children we long for. Or there's the lovely, "no, she doesn't have kids, she has dogs..." oh great, that's ok then, isn't it.

 

so we move on to well if you can't afford it, adopt. but hang on... what about the emotion of it not being your child - of someone else creating that child - have you ever had to consider whether emotionally you can actually do that - when what you want most in the world is a child within your own body??? It's not about being a mother - we can all be mothers - it's about creating a living being yourself. Teg's sarcasm is, imho, because she has probably heard that comment over and over and over again and there is no response we can give that anyone will understand or appreciate, and tbh I'd have phrased a response the same way.

 

IVF has become, because of technology, a woman's RIGHT. You can't possibly possibly understand or begin to empathise with how non child bearing women feel unless you are one. don't even try. if you choose not to have children, it is totally and utterly your choice but you cannot simply ever understand our feelings and you won't know what it's like to cry in a shop looking at a strangers newborn child for no apparent reason other than you can't help yourself.

 

Personally i have issues with IVF being offered to known current drug users. But i have no issue with IVF being offered to anyone who is capable of becoming a responsible mother. That includes ex drug users.

 

Yes this is a contro forum, but contro really doesn't mean insulting. It's open discussion and I can't see it going that way at the moment - I am insulted, I'm sorry but i am.

 

 

Very very well said

[owl]

This is indeed very emotive and I don't feel I want to get too involved or I will just get upset - but I would just like to say I think it is a crying shame that the emotional needs of those whose heart's desire is to adopt older children are not considered as important or even as acceptable as the needs of others who want to give birth to a baby. I don't mean on this thread, I mean in society generally. Even those of us who carry genetic nasties you wouldn't wish on any child are considered a bit weird for not wanting to take the risk.

[cycas]

But i have no issue with IVF being offered to anyone who is capable of becoming a responsible mother. That includes ex drug users.

 

I don't think anyone has suggested that IVF should not be available. The question is whether it should be funded out of taxes. I'd rather it wasn't funded out of mine.

 

Saying that I can't possibly understand is a bit pointless. If I can't possibly understand or sympathise with the problem, then your chances of convincing me I should be paying to solve it are not good.

 

I have asked if anyone has more information on the exact nature of the depression related to childlessness, and whether you can reassure me that this is different to other forms of depression. So far, all I'm getting back is emotion. I'm not feeling the emotion. I don't want kids. I certainly don't want kids with the heritage of epilepsy, asthma and depression they'd get from me and my husband.

 

If you want me to agree that my taxes should pay for IVF, to make yet more people in a world that's already overcrowded, then give me facts and reasoned arguments to support your case. Anyone can say 'I'm hurting, the world should stop and fix it'. Many people are hurting, for many many reasons.

[Jacobean]

I'm managing at the moment to stand back from all of this. If I'd read some parts of this thread some months ago it would have really had me going. I have just had a hysterectomy very much against my will. My consultant has been trying to get me to have this done for a few years and I wouldn't because I desperately wanted a baby. If you haven't been through this dreadful experience you can't begin to understand what it is like. It is sheer hell. I have had a sister in law have 2 children and I couldn't go to see them. I cry every time I see them. I love them to bits and I wish I didn't feel like this but I can't help it.

 

There is such a massive urge to want a child. I'm someone who actually 15 years ago didn't want a child so the change in my feelings as time wore on was quite shocking. I know I could give a lovely life to a child. I yearn to give a child a steady, stable life knowing he/she is loved and will be safe. I haven't had that opportunity.

 

I hear of tales of children being abused. I've read some on here. I've just wanted to say send that child to me. I will give it everything it needs. Can't do that.

 

I am fed up of people be they neighbours, friends, family make remarks that I didn't want children and laugh. It's not bloody funny. Then you get the conversations. Oh it's alright for you, you haven't got children. The one thing I have wanted is a child. You get your nose rubbed in it left, right and centre.

 

I know the life I could give to a child.

 

Adoption is painful. People in my position have been to hell and back emotionally already. You run the risk of going through more of the same by contacting adoption agencies. What if you're turned down. That's it then isn't it. When the child grows up you hope he/she won't be upset by what has happened and you cry for them then (no matter what their circumstances). They then want to meet their biological parents. How will that feel. That will be another roller coaster. The worry is they'll go off and you don't see them again. Yes selfish feelings about yourself. Biological parents that bring their own children up go through similar emotions when it's time for their children to move out of the home etc. It's not the same. Babies can be taught right and wrong from the start and nurtured. Older children can have bad ways taught to them by their old parents, may be harder to bond with quickly, come with all the heartache of their past life that you have to deal with. It is not the same.

 

Obviously that's the negative aspect of adopting. The positives are all fantastic.

 

I am going through the first thoughts of adoption. Whether I actually go for it or not I don't know. Whether I'll be accepted. Well that's a different matter. I am prepared to take on an older child. To be perfectly honest. Right now I don't think I will be able to adopt because I have 4 boisterous dogs and one of them has been a biter in the past.

 

To answer Victoria (cycas)

 

The depression felt by people in this situation is the same as any other depression you feel and is hard to snap out of just the same. Depression as you say can start for all sorts of reasons and this happens to be one of them.

Edited January 16, 2008 by Jacobean

[Sherlock Bones]

If you want me to agree that my taxes should pay for IVF, to make yet more people in a world that's already overcrowded, then give me facts and reasoned arguments to support your case. Anyone can say 'I'm hurting, the world should stop and fix it'. Many people are hurting, for many many reasons.

 

I see it as simple - if you can have children then you have nothing to stop you having them, if you so wish. You will be supported (if required) by the state, NHS etc etc when you have that child. I pay for that in my taxes... I have no choice in that.

 

Why shouldn't those taxes go back to help ME? It's not a case of hurting and wanting to be fixed, it's asking for equal rights along with the rest of the world. Paying IVF through other peoples taxes including my own makes it fair.

[cycas]

To answer Victoria (cycas)

 

The depression felt by people in this situation is the same as any other depression you feel and is hard to snap out of just the same. Depression as you say can start for all sorts of reasons and this happens to be one of them.

 

That is exactly my concern. If depression that is related to childlessness is the same as the depression I've seen in my friends and family, then surely there is no way to be sure that having a child will help, and so far as I can see, every reason to suppose that the child may end up living with a parent who has a serious mental illness, and that the parent will end up with a child that she thought was the answer to her problems, but isn't (and may also have a mental illness, poor little sod).

 

You can't, normally, cure depression by giving people things they want, and it's not usually caused by a desperate longing for anything. Even if the sufferer pins a reason on something for their misery, it often isn't the real reason. Nor is there any way of knowing when it will go away. It's an internal thing that can strike people who have everything to live for.

 

If fertility-related depression is clearly identifiable and different (and given the hormonal element, I can see that it might be) then I can see a case for public funding for treating it through IVF. But if not, I'm just not convinced.

[cycas]

I see it as simple - if you can have children then you have nothing to stop you having them, if you so wish. You will be supported (if required) by the state, NHS etc etc when you have that child. I pay for that in my taxes... I have no choice in that.

 

Why shouldn't those taxes go back to help ME? It's not a case of hurting and wanting to be fixed, it's asking for equal rights along with the rest of the world. Paying IVF through other peoples taxes including my own makes it fair.

 

So, why shouldn't you keep that portion of your taxes that would pay for IVF, and spend them yourself? That way I can keep my portion too, and spend it on something that's important to me instead.

 

As a childless person, I will contribute far more to the system than I am ever likely to get out, including lots towards the children of others. I don't actually mind this. Such is life, and the people who choose to have children by whatever method need support. But I would like to draw the line at IVF, for the reasons I've already given, if I had the option. So far I've seen nothing here that would make me change my mind.