EGAR Posted May 16, 2007 Report Share Posted May 16, 2007 Again, I am with MELF on this one, apart from the numpty that is HER problem and HERS alone. Mwwwharhar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSDFan Posted May 16, 2007 Report Share Posted May 16, 2007 What is the difference in aborting the puppies and pts them at birth? To me there seems a lot of difference between aborting puppies which would not be able to live outside their Mothers womb and killing ones which are already alive. If we hear of Breeders having puppies which are the wrong colour pts most of us object. They are pts because they are unwanted. I can't see much difference between that and a rescue killing live newborn pups because they are unwanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trallwm farm Posted May 16, 2007 Report Share Posted May 16, 2007 if you spay early enough the hormones are not raging just gently simmering and i could not pts puppies that have come through the birthing process and survived once here you deal with them (i have handreared over 70) but if there is an opportunity without harming the bitch to prevent next years unwanteds i grasp it with both hands the difference in abortion is that the puppies are not viable and unable to live with pts they are allowed their first breath then stabbed in the heart and euthanased which is something my concience would not allow me to let happen that is not a dig at those that would take this route i think we all have to do what we personally are comfortable with edited cos im a numpty I would agree with you. If the puppies are capable of breathing and surviving then they should be hand reared and not PTS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Canis-Equus~ Posted May 17, 2007 Report Share Posted May 17, 2007 I disagree (obviously as i put the cat among the pigeons with the culling concept there)... I dont think a great number of rescues have the time to hand raise part or all of a litter - yes many do and hats off to them, but many dont. In that situation, either something else has to give, because with the best will in the world no one has more than 24 hours in a day, and one way or the other, the dogs will suffer, even if extremely indirectly because the person fostering or the rescue owner burns out. Then there are the behavioural implications - hand raised pups especially those who perhaps for practical reasons have actually been totally removed from the mother (say shes very ill), just dont grow up quite as well balanced as they would with a canine mother - no one here could ever deny that a pup removed from the bitch too early will be affected by this in a detrimental fashion. So to always hand raise a litter rather than PTS at birth in extreme situations means you could possibly be raising future problem dogs, in a world where problem free dogs struggle to find homes. I do fervently believe there ARE worse things than death, and personally to my mind putting down a pup that has never known life is better than denying a dog whose previous owners have let them down. Perhaps that makes me weird, but there you go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trallwm farm Posted May 17, 2007 Report Share Posted May 17, 2007 Actually I agree with you too in a way. Im lucky because it wouldnt be me making the decision but it would probably be me hand rearing so Im very fortunate that I dont have to deal with a situation. Another thought is what if the pups were Akitas or something ? Would that sway my decision if I had to be the one making it. and Yes it probably would however if the pups were here and needed hand rearing then I would do that without a 2nd thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSDFan Posted May 17, 2007 Report Share Posted May 17, 2007 I disagree (obviously as i put the cat among the pigeons with the culling concept there)... I dont think a great number of rescues have the time to hand raise part or all of a litter - yes many do and hats off to them, but many dont. In that situation, either something else has to give, because with the best will in the world no one has more than 24 hours in a day, and one way or the other, the dogs will suffer, even if extremely indirectly because the person fostering or the rescue owner burns out. Then there are the behavioural implications - hand raised pups especially those who perhaps for practical reasons have actually been totally removed from the mother (say shes very ill), just dont grow up quite as well balanced as they would with a canine mother - no one here could ever deny that a pup removed from the bitch too early will be affected by this in a detrimental fashion. Your idea though Em was to pts all but two of the pups. It would be better to leave the whole litter with Mum and help her to feed and look after them. It is easier to do that than to totally hand rear, takes a lot of pressue of Mum and is better for the puppies. Actually I agree with you too in a way. Another thought is what if the pups were Akitas or something ? Would that sway my decision if I had to be the one making it. and Yes it probably would however if the pups were here and needed hand rearing then I would do that without a 2nd thought Why would it possibly make a difference what breed the pups were ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katiebob Posted May 17, 2007 Report Share Posted May 17, 2007 It depends how far into pregnancy the bitch is. If the pups are viable then no I don't think the bitch should be spayed. Neither do I think the puppies should be put to sleep after they are born. If the bitch is unable to rear them alone then humans can help. Agree completely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Canis-Equus~ Posted May 18, 2007 Report Share Posted May 18, 2007 Jackie, oh yes! If it would be possibly to purely support the bitch by doing some hand feeding, then id go for that over culling part of the litter every time. That isnt always possible though, if a small bitch has a huuuuge litter and shes already ill then even the stress of being with a large number of puppies could be too much for her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingrid Posted May 18, 2007 Report Share Posted May 18, 2007 Then there are the behavioural implications - hand raised pups especially those who perhaps for practical reasons have actually been totally removed from the mother (say shes very ill), just dont grow up quite as well balanced as they would with a canine mother - no one here could ever deny that a pup removed from the bitch too early will be affected by this in a detrimental fashion. Where does this come from ?? I've heard the same said many times about singleton pups too. Merlin was a singleton pup, taken from mum at 5 weeks, for good reasons, and he doesn't have any more behavioural implications then any oher dog I have owned. He is a friendly happy little thing, fine with humans and most other dogs, yes he will retaliate if a larger dog goes for him but he doesn't often start anything. Most of his bad traits are normal breed traits, terrier/hound, nothing to do with his start or upbringing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaos Posted May 18, 2007 Report Share Posted May 18, 2007 (edited) Merlin is a friendly happy little thing, fine with humans I'll vouch for that.......he just isn't keen on nail clippers! Actually, I'm also interested in the source of those (and similar) statements. I've handreared a pup or two over the years and (to my knowledge), they've been fine. Wouldn't it depend on how they were raised in the first couple of months? Edited May 18, 2007 by Kaos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSDFan Posted May 18, 2007 Report Share Posted May 18, 2007 Where does this come from ?? I've heard the same said many times about singleton pups too. Merlin was a singleton pup, taken from mum at 5 weeks, for good reasons, and he doesn't have any more behavioural implications then any oher dog I have owned. He is a friendly happy little thing, fine with humans and most other dogs, yes he will retaliate if a larger dog goes for him but he doesn't often start anything. Most of his bad traits are normal breed traits, terrier/hound, nothing to do with his start or upbringing. I'll vouch for that.......he just isn't keen on nail clippers! Actually, I'm also interested in the source of those (and similar) statements. I've handreared a pup or two over the years and (to my knowledge), they've been fine. Wouldn't it depend on how they were raised in the few couple of months? Thinking about it, you two are right. I don't know where that comes from and I certainly don't have any first hand knowledge to support the theory. Maybe it is one of those things we all *know* to be true because it has been said so often. I've only met one singleton pup that grew up to be less than pleasant, however I knew her lines and those lines would go at least some way to explaining her being a bit 'sharp'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumpole Posted May 18, 2007 Report Share Posted May 18, 2007 my darling pumpkin is also handreared (and is the only one ive ever broken ) he is happy and well rounded albeit he does know that hes special as are/were all 70 of my other handrears who are all bar one still in the homes they were placed in originally and the one that came back was because his owner died in a crash. it very much depends on the handrearer and on the household environment the puppy is reared in, i am very lucky in having a kass (the old grey mare in my avatar ) who has aided me for fifteen years and taught manners to hundreds of puppies, as long as they know they are a dog and have the company and education provided by another dog then being without their natural mother should make no difference at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingrid Posted May 18, 2007 Report Share Posted May 18, 2007 I'll vouch for that.......he just isn't keen on nail clippers! Ooops should have added "except for Kaos" who he still hasn't forgiven for the nail clipping episode But then is Kaos human Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSDFan Posted May 18, 2007 Report Share Posted May 18, 2007 But then is Kaos human Ooooooooeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrr ladies. Is it going to be handbags at dawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffymad Posted May 18, 2007 Report Share Posted May 18, 2007 I agree that if the litter is not viable yet, then speying every time. As for handrearing and behaviour, I know of a few staffy litters that were hand reared due to various reasons, one for example where the mother tried to drown her pups in her water bowl. ALL of these puppies have grown to wonderful cheeky staffies and the rescue concerned deserves a slap on the back for a job well done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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