KathyM Posted September 14, 2009 Report Share Posted September 14, 2009 Hi you lot, I could really use some advice to get off on the right foot with our Sid. A bit of background first. We live at the bottom end of a cul de sac, Sidney came to us last week after straying in the area due to a bitch in season at the top end of the cul de sac. He is due to be neutered towards the end of the month once I have assessed whether he is confident enough to be. We have no problems whatsoever with him in the house - he gets on fabulously with Dharma and vice versa, they seem a very relaxed and chilled pairing unlike the madness of previous companions for her (perhaps as she's getting on now). He is very toy oriented, not very foody, which is new for this household lol! The problem we have is purely outside. At walk time he gets very excited and vocal before we even leave the house. I don't want to reinforce this so have been doing the old stopping and starting routine - this would no doubt be more effective if I had taught him "watch" with a clicker, but haven't started clicker with him yet as he is quite hard to motivate with food, and toys aren't enough reinforcement to stop him doing this next bit. Once we are outside he gets more and more vocal. If there are no "stimulants" around like other dogs then this might not be more than sounding like an excited chimp panting and "ha ha ha" yapping til he gets to the park. However, at the "bottle neck" of the cul de sac there are several houses with dogs that guard heavily, including the bitch in season. If they are out in their yards, they have a right go at him and he changes from a panting "ha ha ha" excited noise to a full on yappy howl. He is by far the loudest dog on the street when he does this and it is very embarrassing as people are getting sick of it (and those who aren't think it's hilarious). If a dog ignores him he is no bother at all and it is purely when they have a go at him that he gets that loud. So there are two aspects to this - the overexcitement vocalisation that happens with or without the other dogs, and the reaction to those dogs. He is great with other dogs out and about in the park so I don't feel it's that, it is only when those dogs are scary/rude (?) that he barks and howls at them. However all in all he is an overly noisy dog out and about and we need to curb this. I was wondering if anyone had any ideas? We've tried making him carry his fave toys to the park but he drops them when the dogs start on at him. Also starting with a halti as of today to help keep his focus on us. Thanks in advance Kathy xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
celeste Posted September 14, 2009 Report Share Posted September 14, 2009 I used one of the tricks in the Control Unleashed book with Daisy, it simply getting the dog to give you eye contact before you perform anything they want you to do, you don't use a command, but simply wait until the dog glances at you, I used it for Daisy going into the field across the road, which she loves, but she would get very manic, and pull like a train to get to the gate, I stood with my hand on the gate ready to open it the second she looked at me, which she eventually did, just a glance at first, now she bores holes into my skull to get me to open the gate, but, it's made her completely calm walking to the field, she's still pleased to be going there, it's just made her "get a grip" that might work at the front door with Sid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyM Posted September 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 Hi Celeste Sorry for the late reply. That sounds like a good start for the over-excitement at the beginning of the walk, thanks, I'll look into that! Not sure what to do about the rest but will look into it more. Thanks again, Kathy xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
celeste Posted September 16, 2009 Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 I'd have suggested the whole Control Unleashed book, but it's very dependant on using treats and toy's so probably not an option for Sid. It might be that doing the, waiting for him to look at you, thing will give you a grain of leverage over his other issues. It is a very frustrating behaviour to deal with, I used to look after an OES five days a week whilst his owners were at work, he was completely barmy on the lead and would rush at cars going past, chase aeroplanes that flew overhead, completely out of control,by the end of the five days I'd be getting him to at least acknowledge I was on the other end of the leash, only for him to be back at his owners at the weekend, come Monday, he was back to square one as his owners wouldn't keep anything up, it was like living in Groundhog Day !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyM Posted September 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 Thanks Celeste He is very good on the lead, apart from the noise. It's just the noise is massively excessive and will get us in trouble if it continues, I have no doubt. He only starts if someone starts barking at him, it's like he's on alert and the slightest excuse turns him into an opera singer (except I can listen to an opera singer without wanting to curl up and die in embarrassment lol). People can literally hear him coming from 2-3 streets away, they have commented already. Thanks again Kathy xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mop Posted September 16, 2009 Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 Once we are outside he gets more and more vocal. If there are no "stimulants" around like other dogs then this might not be more than sounding like an excited chimp panting and "ha ha ha" yapping til he gets to the park. However, at the "bottle neck" of the cul de sac there are several houses with dogs that guard heavily, including the bitch in season. If they are out in their yards, they have a right go at him and he changes from a panting "ha ha ha" excited noise to a full on yappy howl. He is by far the loudest dog on the street when he does this and it is very embarrassing as people are getting sick of it (and those who aren't think it's hilarious). If a dog ignores him he is no bother at all and it is purely when they have a go at him that he gets that loud. I can understand you wanting to teach him not to do this Kathy, but, you should be able to walk down a road without having to deal with other dogs behaving like this. There are many people who are frightened of dogs and this sort of behaviour for these other dogs could be terrifying to them. There was a similar situation by me, people were frightened to walk past a house because of the way the dogs were barking etc. someone reported them to the Dog Warden and they were told they had to keep their dogs under contol and not have access to the front at any time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyM Posted September 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 Yes I completely agree with you in theory Margaret, unfortunately I'm not in a position where complaining is a good idea. I have no doubt someone else will eventually and I do have sympathy for the dog and the owner as she is not by a long shot an easy dog by the looks of it. So for now all I can focus on is stopping Sid's reaction to them as that is just as OTT and that's my responsibility. His voice really goes through you, especially ricocheting down a cul de sac! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyM Posted September 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 I suspect I'm asking a bit much of people on a forum, sorry. I thought someone else might have been through similar and I promise I'm not trying to get out of getting "professional" help, just didn't think I'd be needing it for this one. However, I've not had any luck on another training board either (in fact quite the opposite - been told to learn to live with it!) so I'm going to also ask if anyone knows of a behaviourist or trainer in my area that they can recommend. I'm on a student budget but get my grant through soon and he comes first. And thanks Margaret and Celeste for your replies, it was really kind of you and I'll check out that book too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReikiAnge Posted September 16, 2009 Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 Kathy, there are probably people who have been through similar - me included* - but it sounds as though you don't think food or toys would help, which makes suggestions a bit limited, for me anyhow When you say he will carry toys but his desire to react to the other dogs over-rides his desire to carry the toy, one thought might be to keep one of his favourite toys just for these walks, to see if that has any benefit. Maybe he'll become more foody as time goes on - one of mine did - or maybe you could try different foods to see if that helps, what have you tried so far? *Max can be grumpy with other dogs. He does carry a toy - handy him being a lab! - but he will drop that if his reaction is strong enough. However the toy does definitely stop him reacting to some triggers he would have otherwise reacted to. I keep particular toy(s) for walks only so that it holds more interest. We did have one experience - which involves clicker/food and toy I'm afraid, hence not posting sooner - in one place we walk in. The area is bordered to one side by a very large garden with a chain link (I think) fence. There are several dogs in that property who if they hear someone going by, charge right down to the border fence and really kick off. Scary as I'm never entirely sure they're not going to charge through as you can't really see the fence very well. Anyway, Max used to understandably react to these dogs rushing at him through what to him is a see-through fence and it was stressful, so I did some clicker training with him. From memory I was clicking/treating him for looking at me rather than the dogs and I also got him to do some sits for treats, which meant he was ignoring the dogs - obviously only rewarded when he wasn't reacting to the dogs. He did also have his "walk toy" with him. I also realised I was really trying to rush by the other dogs which was probably not very reassuring to him, so I tried to calm myself and take things slowly and not rush by, but stay and do some work with the other dogs kicking off near by. I hoped he would realise that they weren't a threat and that I wasn't worried. We got it sorted within a week, which is amazing if you know Max and it got to the stage where he can just walk by with a toy and not react to the dogs running and barking at all. This wasn't down an alley or along a pavement, so we were able to work quite a few feet away from the other dogs, but there was just a huge change in his behaviour, I was very proud of him. I did also later realise there was a little detour that we could take to mostly avoid the bl**dy dogs but I guess it was a worthwhile experience anyway. Just my non-professional ramblings in case it helps. I find things like home made tuna cake and the Fish 4 Dogs treats can be very persuasive. Hope you can find a way to improve things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyMalc Posted September 16, 2009 Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 I'd have suggested the whole Control Unleashed book, but it's very dependant on using treats and toy's so probably not an option for Sid. It might be that doing the, waiting for him to look at you, thing will give you a grain of leverage over his other issues. Another Control Unleashed fan here! While there is a lot of emphasis on toys and treats as rewards, there is also a part that deals with "stopping the behaviour you're expressing to get what you want" (from the dog's point of view that is). I'm trying this at the moment with Sparky. When we get to the park, his first reaction is to want to pull me like a steam train to the bushes. I'm now asking a 'with me' from him, so that he doesn't quite walk to heel, but with me calmly. When we're right in front of the bushes - so that he can reach them on a slack lead, I ask him to 'wait'. Once he's waited I tell him 'okay', which is his sign that he can do what he wants. So far so good! Not entirely sure how you could translate that into your situation Kathy, would it be helpful to take a toy with you and have a quick game whenever he looks at you? Obviously if the other dogs bark even more because your dog is focused on you when you're walking past it's not your problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyM Posted September 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 Thank you ever so much for your post! You rock. I haven't given up on clicker/rewards, just need to find his "thing", the reward that overrides everything else and so far haven't. We have tried with bits of sausage and cheese as I didn't have any liver in and have been quite unwell so wasn't up to baking (to be honest I'm not up to dogwalking at the minute either but at least Baz can help with that lol). I have liver in now and will make dried garlicky liver to see if that does it. I hope so because it's like crack to Dharma. God knows why because cooking it makes me gip lol. The fave toy thing might work in time once I know which one really gets him going. He full on "kills" squeakies within seconds (even the more durable latex ones). So far we had a half way decent reaction to the (brand new) Air Kong "tampax" - he went mental for it in the park and carried it home but dropped it when stressed/reacting. He has since eaten it, well, it lasted one walk and he pulled the end off so we used it as a long sausagey tennis ball for another walk when he peeled it of all it's yellow fluff and then tore it to bits. A kong on a rope is more durable but heavier, need to find something in between I think! I know we can get through this, mainly because I'm not averse to hard work or a "project" training wise and Dharma and him were obviously meant to be together. More than that I have bonded with him very strongly and he with me already. It was fairly instant that, within 3 hours of meeting him, and when he went home that first night I felt like I'd given "my" dog away. I do wonder how much of this is due to his emotions/drives being heightened by the bitch in season. It must be driving him crackers as his old owners have said he was a complete sex machine with them, even humping the cats. I know his roaming has been brought on by smelling her, so perhaps this stressiness will subside a little (I'm not daft enough to think it will go completely) when she comes out of season or he is neutered. That's the other thing though, I don't want to book him in for neutering if he's actually fearful, in case it knocks his confidence. Likewise though if his nads are causing him stress I want them off though lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
celeste Posted September 16, 2009 Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 I know exactly where your coming from re the neutering, I regret having Spud done, he became quite clingy, and unsure of himself when he was done at age three, I know your on a bit of a budget so don't know if this is feasible, but you could ask the vet to try hormonal treatment before you go for the snip, it's not entirely accurate, but it can give you an idea of what he'll be like once he's castrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyM Posted September 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 Thanks Celeste - I'll look into that! I am due a grant payment soon so now is the time to get anything sorted like his vaccs and neutering and insurance for the year, so I shall ask the vet about Tardak too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackmagic Posted September 19, 2009 Report Share Posted September 19, 2009 I f he is over excited, maybe using DAP spray on a bandana, when walking him, would help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanrossscot Posted September 20, 2009 Report Share Posted September 20, 2009 What size is your garden? Do you have to walk him to get exercise? If he is going the same way every time (has to be I guess as you are in a cul-de-sac) then he will be getting an adrenalin hit every time he goes out. Would it be possible to restrict his exercise for a week say to allow him to chill out and, hopefully, the bitch in season to be less attractive. If you are able to give him stimulation and exercise at home for that period it would allow the chemical high he has been getting to go, it won't hurt him not to have a 'proper walk' for a week or so and it may give you a chance to break the reaction cycle. When you start going out again, build on looking at you and he only gets to walk as far as he can stay quiet for, if he starts getting sressy, turn back before he reaches full on screaming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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