Racism Question.

[Brenda]

I absolutely hate the word Paki, and would never use it. I've never heard it used in a positive way and because of the negative way in which it has been used, I would describe it as a racist term. In the 70's I lived & went to school in Southall, which is highly populated with Asians, the term 'Paki' was frequently used in a racist way. I can totally understand that you grandson wasn't intending to be racist, but sadly that is how it would be interpreted.

[DanishPastry]

I'm intrigued by this statement that the word 'Brit' is racist?

 

I've never ever heard it used in a racist way anywhere ever, nor ever heard anyone before today mention that it has been????

 

Whereas, we all know that the word 'paki' has been used in a racist way

 

However, if the Pakistani child (which is a misnomer anyway, as one assumes he is a Brit) and his parents didnt have an issue, i dont see what business is it of (white?) PC people to complain on their behalf?

 

I do find that patronising and discriminatory against the 'Pakistani people' concerned.

 

You have to consider the context the word was used in, as you would any word

 

Yes, Paki is a racist word and should be educated against, but when kids are just being kids, and the child's parents dont complain, then that is far more important than forcing a socially segregating victim label upon a child for the purposes of ideology, when all that matters in this case are the truths of childhood.

 

I do think that some fundamental truths of human nature have been over-ridden in today's over-legislating 'right to be offended' society.

 

Also, sometimes highlighting a problem is what creates a problem.

POSTED BY KRUSEWALKER ON DANISH LOGIN

Edited May 5, 2009 by DanishPastry

[scotslass]

So, Krusewalker, if my young nephew is called a Paki by another child, any adults in the vicinity should ignore it? Unless he complains (unlikely) or his parents complain (if they get to hear about it...again unlikely). It has already been pointed out that people may say they're not offended when in fact they may be...not everyone finds it easy to be confrontational.

 

I'm not gay, but if I saw someone using homophobic language to a gay person, I'd intervene (unless they were armed, or very scary ). Does that make me patronising? Or just someone who thinks we have a responsibility as members of society to make life comfortable for all its members?

 

That includes the little boy who used the word, by the way. No-one suggested punishing him, or making him feel bad - just that it's wise for him to learn not to use words which might hurt others.

 

Most racists/BNP supporters in Bradford use the following argument. "It's just a word. It doesn't mean anything. People are too PC these days". I'm not suggesting for a moment that anyone here is racist; just that we might want to avoid making bedfellows of those who are. How much trouble is it to use the proper word, or as I suggested, not refer to someone's ethnicity at all? Is it so hard to expect people to err on the side of kindness?

[ranirottie]

I can see why you are totally against the word being used Scotslass but I still dont understand the logic behind the feelings. We are called not only Poms by the "Aussies" but Whinging Poms and there is never an uproar,why is that? Are we saying that some races are more sensitive than others? or is it because if a word is used often enough as an insult that it becomes an insult? I think by making a big issue out of a word it makes people use it more and with racist tones. I also can't understand why adding an I to the word Pak makes it worse. The shop in our village is called "the Paki shop" by everybody here, includint some people from Pakistan. I have never heard any race hate in this village and we have various races integrated together with no problems., and I have never heard anyone complain about it being called that. Perhaps its because we are a village without racial hate that I am not seeing the true picture but I do feel that by making a certain race "stick out" it causes racism where there was none before.We say Aussie, Kiwi etc and after all it is just an abbreviation surely. When did it become offensive?Why is one abbreviation taboo but another is not? who decided that it was offensive? I am sorry if I am offending anyone,just trying to put my point across without any malice and certainly no offence to any other race.x

Edited May 5, 2009 by ranirottie

[cycas]

The reason that it's generally considered less sensitive if people use rude words to refer to the British is that for around the last 500-odd years, as a nation, the British did a lot of kicking butt. Many of the peoples that were exploited by the British Empire still feel very bitter about it and are much more sensitive about what they see as derogatory language from their former rulers than we are. We haven't been conquered and oppressed by an alien nation since 1066*, we just don't have the same mindset.

 

One can argue about whether this is justified historically - after all, the descendents of, say, British miners, or the people who worked hard and died young in the mills and factories of Britain are hardly responsible for the situation - but the fact remains that there are a lot of people to whom words like 'Paki' have a very bad historical resonance, and who will, without deliberately looking for insult, take such use of such words by a white person brought up with all the advantages of modern Western money, education and medicine, as a statement of privilege.

 

As a result, I think it is safer to simply avoid those words. You can't know that you aren't addressing, or being overheard by, someone to whom they will have very terrible echoes.

 

*excluding, of course, the Welsh and Irish. I always wonder why it is considered less offensive to use rude names for the Irish, given what they went through in relatively recent times.

[DanishPastry]

So, Krusewalker, if my young nephew is called a Paki by another child, any adults in the vicinity should ignore it? Unless he complains (unlikely) or his parents complain (if they get to hear about it...again unlikely). It has already been pointed out that people may say they're not offended when in fact they may be...not everyone finds it easy to be confrontational.

 

I'm not gay, but if I saw someone using homophobic language to a gay person, I'd intervene (unless they were armed, or very scary ). Does that make me patronising? Or just someone who thinks we have a responsibility as members of society to make life comfortable for all its members?

 

That includes the little boy who used the word, by the way. No-one suggested punishing him, or making him feel bad - just that it's wise for him to learn not to use words which might hurt others.

 

Most racists/BNP supporters in Bradford use the following argument. "It's just a word. It doesn't mean anything. People are too PC these days". I'm not suggesting for a moment that anyone here is racist; just that we might want to avoid making bedfellows of those who are. How much trouble is it to use the proper word, or as I suggested, not refer to someone's ethnicity at all? Is it so hard to expect people to err on the side of kindness?

 

It's not so black and white.

Like i said, its all to do with context and what's appropriate to the situation.

The context in this case being children.

Is it 'always' right to sacrifice childhood innocence to the alter of ideology?

I'm reminded of the great South Park episode where the black chef got mad and started a campaign against the kids as they made a flag depicting white stick men lynching a black stick man.

The kids couldnt understand why chef was being such a stuff shirt about pictures of hanging men, and were offended at his efforts to suppress their creativity.

It wasnt until chef explained his complaint, that the kids even realised that the colours were relevant, at which point chef is filled with horror at introducing the concept of race into young minds when it didnt exist.

Episode ends with the kids making a flag of black, yellow, green and white stick men lynching a black stick man.

Classic.

 

It could also be that people say they are not offended because they are not offended.

Grown adults, if so moved, can speak up, if they feel so inclined.

Colour isnt a bar to that.

So, if an 'ethnic person' doesn't see a problem with kids being kids, what place a white people on their behalf?

 

Although i dont agree the word 'paki' is akin to the words 'brit', 'swede', etc, when it comes to describing nationality, as 'paki' has a history of racism, the others dont, and british born 'pakis' arent 'pakis' anyway, they are brits.

I dont think it even compares to yank, kiwi, paddy, or whinging pom either, as those are terms of slang not really grounded in a history of racial abuse, as the word paki is.

 

Respects

 

KRUSEWALKER AGAIN

 

PS - People's from Pakistan are called Pakistanis.

However, even this term doesn't work in the same as people from America are called Americans, etc, etc.

As Pakistan is an abbreviation for people that live in Punjab, , Kashmir, Sindh, and Balochistan.

Edited May 5, 2009 by DanishPastry

[Happylittlegreensquirrel]

my parents and all my family going back as far as anyone knows are Irish , I was born here so I am British

 

I don't carry any guilt for being a British citizen nor do I hold any grudges about past treatment of the Irish by the British ( I could get myself into a right pickle if I started that couldn't I ) nor do I see the word Brit in a negative light ( I always think of Brit-pop when I hear or see the word Brit )

 

 

Although of course in the last few generations there has been conflict in Ireland ( both North and South ) generally in the South where my family live ( Dublin ) people don't hold grudges or have any anti British feelings and all my family use the word paddy to describe Irish things or "irishness" Therefore I don't see Paddy in a negative way ( how could I ) so I reckon part of it is the cultural and family upbringing you have

 

 

 

all of that said , from my very earliest children upbringing in sarf London the term Paki was always used in a negative sense ( both spoken and graffiti ) it often carried the prefix F**king and I therefore refrain from using it myself as I learnt it as a negative or raciest word and one that again my family never approved off or used them selves

 

The term Paki ( with or without its prefix ) was often used to cover any person with any Asian background ( Indian etc ) or indeed Middle east so it was not being used a shortened version of Pakistani but more as a general cover all derogatory term for people of a certain skin tone

[Ingrid]

As a vicrtim of white on white racism in my early years, yes we are talking PRIMARY school all I can say is that as a victim you either rise above it and get on with life or become bitter.

 

Let me expalain, I am the youngest daughter of a German war bride who married my father and moved to this country just after the second world war, I also had the good fortune to be the only one given a German name, although throughout my primary school years it was changed to that bloody nazi kid. I had good friends who had parents that weren't so prejudiced, but that is my point, racism is taught it's not something that we geneticsally inherit.

 

Looking back I can understand the feelings, many had lost relatives and friends in the conflict, and I like to think that it made me a stronger person, in fact in later years I even became friends with most of offenders.

[blackmagic]

As a child I was reprimanded for using the term 'black, when describing a person of African origin. It was considered very bad taste, almost akin to swearing, to say 'a black man'. I suppose nowadays it would be called racist, but we didn't use such terms in these days.

 

The term to use was' coloured'.

 

Nowadays, it is the opposite - 'coloured' is not PC and the term to use is 'black'.

 

Due to my early learning I find it very difficult to use the term 'black' when describing a person.

[Fiona711]

Interesting topic , years ago i used to work for a man from Pakistan and i once asked him why the word Paki was deemed to be offensive , his reply was " i am a Paki if i was from india i would be insulted if anyone called me a paki bit im not so it does not bother me in the slightest " He then went into a conversation about how some people from England hate the scots and told me that in the same way some people from pakistan hate indians and vice versa i was totally baffled by that as anyone who knows me knows my geogrophy is shocking Pakistan could have been in India for all i know but i found his answer really interesting but what i also find interesting is the way different words can be offensive in different parts of the uk .

 

In Fife you hear the words paki shop or just the pakis as often as the chinkeys I think its a very fine line between using these words as an insult or in general conversation . Intrestingly enough i have often heard people from pakistan call each other pakis , not in a derogatory way but in general conversation .

 

My son was once told off for being racist when he told a wee boy in his class that his skin was the colour of chocolate i could not believe the schools attitude as Robert did not mean any offence at all , he was only in primary 3 and interestingly enough it was the adults that had the problem with it not the kid involved .

 

I think the world has gone mad i really do . Im sure a lot of people if they wanted to be deliberately offensive would use a lot worse language than paki brit pom etc

 

Im sure a lot of people use these terms just in general and do not mean them as an insult at all . If they are deliberately offensive then thats a totally different thing . I have chinese friends who when they were debating wether or not to open another shop in the next town asked me if i thought the town needed another chinkeys . These same friends found the word chink offensive but not the word chinkey , which i dont get , but everyone has different views and feelings i suppose .

 

Its a mine field thats for sure , but as Alfie and his friend did not see it as insulting i think its sad that Alfie got told off for what for him was an innocent remark .

 

Fiona xx

[reds]

Completely agree with Fiona, it's the way words are used that make them offensive. Reminds me of the Prince Harry story!

 

What would worry me is that Alfie has obviously picked the word up so I personally would try and explain to him that it is a term that can upset people.

[Tisaann]

It's not so black and white.

 

and british born 'pakis' arent 'pakis' anyway, they are brits.

 

How does that work out? I was born in Africa to white British parents. I'm not African I'm British. Your nationality comes down to what your parents are and not where you were born

[DanishPastry]

How does that work out? I was born in Africa to white British parents. I'm not African I'm British. Your nationality comes down to what your parents are and not where you were born

 

when i wrote above i was taking into account the child is probably third or fourth gen british, which is usually the case for most people called 'paki'.

 

i always thought if you were born in one country and your parents from another, you could claim dual nationality anyway?

KRUSEWALKER

Edited May 8, 2009 by DanishPastry

[Happylittlegreensquirrel]

How does that work out? I was born in Africa to white British parents. I'm not African I'm British. Your nationality comes down to what your parents are and not where you were born

 

 

Not always

 

 

I was born in London to Irish parents and I am not Irish I am British

 

 

My family history is Irish but I am not Irish , I could get an Irish passport and take Irish citizenship if I really wanted but even then I would still be British because its where I was born and was brought up

[murtle]

How does that work out? I was born in Africa to white British parents. I'm not African I'm British. Your nationality comes down to what your parents are and not where you were born

 

Not necessarily, I guess. I'm thinking heritage (or something) and citizenship??

 

I have British citizenship following my parents claiming Naturalisation, I was an alien on arrival but they both grew up in Rhodesia and I was born there. So what nationality does that make us??!

 

British : not Scottish, Irish, Welsh or English? Only wondering as I'm often asked which one I am if I say I'm British!

 

I've spent most of my life in the UK, more specifically England, but I wouldn't class myself as English!!