K9Fran Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/taysid...ral/7906389.stm As I understand it, this woman was giving testimony against her Uncle who had abused her as a young child. Understandebly, she found this hard and left the courtroom at some stage during the cross examination. The judge decided that a night in the cells would 'calm her down'........ Is it any wonder that so few women come forward to report a rape? I was date raped as an 18 year old - it still affects my life over 30 years later, but there is no way I could have stood infront of a judge........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cafferysmum Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 omg this is awful, think the judge needs to be put in prison for a week and see how he likes cells... the pratt.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherlock Bones Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 I would think that the failure of a witness to give their evidence was contempt of court or something similar, and I suspect that the judge invoked old historic and outdated rules. Any sane compassionate human being would adjourn the court but I suspect that, as the UK judicial system is innocent until proven guilty, the historic laws weighed more than common sense did. Poor girl, I hope she recovers from this horrific ordeal and finds help outside the courtroom that can enable her to find some comfort from her ordeal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyMalc Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 "Figures show that of the 922 allegations of rape in Scotland last year, only 27 resulted in convictions. " Well, rapists will now know where to go then, don't they! Even more so with the help of a d!ckhead like that joker of a "judge"!!! :mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReikiAnge Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 I'm horrified. What a Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslass Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 Truly awful. There has been an outcry over this case and many MSPs are demanding action, so let's hope something is done to address the whole problem of getting a conviction. I accept that some of those "non-results" would be false accusations (and in which case, the woman should be charged for falsely accusing), but it still seems like a very low conviction rate. I hate to say it, but with so many older men still dominating the legal scene, I suspect we won't see change any time soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 It is a minuscule number of "false" complaints which make it to court, when you realise just what a victim has to go through for it even to get to court even the most determined of victims will lose heart and drop the charges. In the English justice system cps will only take a case forward if they believe the weight of evidence supports a conviction with a greater than 85% chance of success below that percentage then it only goes forward if it is considered "in the public interest" - and there are very few of those so when you realise that the cases that get to court have that much evidence it is even more shocking to see the conviction rate so low. I and my colleagues have been campaigning for decades for judges and juries to have training on the effects and impact of trauma - witnesses (victims) present in all kinds of ways when they get into court and they are judged on their "performance" I've had clients whose lives have been utterly destroyed, who are almost incapable of coping and who make heroic efforts to hold themselves together to get to court so they can have their "justice" - only for the judge to remark when passing sentence that the witness "did not seem to have been unduly affected by her experience" and let the rapist off with a suspended sentence... another was almost falling apart in the witness box and got to hear that her "hysteronics" should not sway the jury Trauma reactions can bare very little relation to how someone is really feeling - judges and juries need to understand that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslass Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 I agree that training would help, but I'm not sure how we go about changing a national mindset quickly; all too often, male police officers and judges regard sexual offences as trivial. Getting them to understand that victims are individuals - who don't all present the effects of their trauma in the same way - would be a start. This judge is not some unknown backroom boy either, although I see he's being described as a "temporary" judge in this case - he regularly handles major cases. If it happened to me, I could easily imagine not reporting it, even though I know that is entirely the wrong thing to do. Bad enough to be subjected to violence by a criminal, but to endure questioning about my sexual history and have to defend/explain myself to the criminal's lawyer in a public court?...no thanks. There are groups working away at changing things, though, so we can only hope that cases like this one are soon consigned to history, albeit many years too late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiri_tc Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Disgusting I was raped at the age of 15 and have a daughter from that. I never did go to court and this is just one more reason to add to my list! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslass Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Disgusting I was raped at the age of 15 and have a daughter from that. I never did go to court and this is just one more reason to add to my list! for you. Let's hope there's real justice in future and women feel they can put their trust in the legal system. We should all be asking our MPs what they intend to do about the situation, both north and south of the border. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neoclassic Perk Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 I agree that training would help, but I'm not sure how we go about changing a national mindset quickly; all too often, male police officers and judges regard sexual offences as trivial. It is happening; too slowly, but I do think it is changing faster than I expected, really. I work for a large police force, and I genuinely don't know of one male police officer who would trivialise an allegation in any way, ever. They support victims to the very best of their ability while at the same time carrying out a robust and objective investigation in order to maximise the chance of a guilty verdict if the case ever goes to court (a flawed or bias investigation will be grasped by the defence team and used to undermine the case). The problem is that false reporting of rape and sexual assault isn't unusual, and every time a woman makes a false allegation, then it makes things harder for every other genuine victim I wish that society was harder on the women who do this, tbh - no matter what the issues, and no matter what the accused has actually done, it is unforgivable imo to falsely allege rape. It places pressure on already stretched public resources, diverts attention from genuine victims and makes it necessary for all victims to be challenged early on in an investigation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Oh I am so NOT leaving those remarks stand unchallenged As someone who has been at the sharp end actually training and educating police officers about sexual violence and the effects on victims I am perhaps one of those who even if only in a very minor way has helped to make the changes of attitude that is happening amongst the police authorities these days and yes I DO acknolwledge that things HAVE changed for the better and a woman is far far FAR more likely these days to be treated with respect, understanding and compassion by male & female police officers who he or she might come in contact with. They will also be far more lilely to have access to specialist rape suites and trained support workers - again I trained several of them so I know their training is first class BUT it's all dependant upon which police authority you happen to live in - some are better than others, all however are better than they used to be. So having said that the police are getting better one thing they simply are not getting better at is recognising that a retraction of an allegation does NOT always equal that no crime took place or that the allegations are false - there are many many reasons why a victim would FAR rather the police thought her a liar than to have to go through with the complaint, it is FAR easier to live with some anonymous policeman thinking badly of you than perhaps living with the shame and trauma of everyone knowing what happened to you or judging you, or having to face your rapist on a daily basis having been thru the HELL that is our criminal justice system when it comes to sexual crime only for the cps not to proceed or for the courts to find him not guilty. What a victim does to protect herself and her family should never ever be presumed to mean that a crime did not take place or that the allegations were malicious, invented or motivated by revenge - it is not only failing to recognise the true reality of the failings of our criminal justice system, the true depth of impact upon victims of this type of crime but it is additionally allowing potential serial rapists to walk free day in day out. I DO understand the limitations of police reporting/accounting/statistics believe me I've been working in this field a long long time now and working very closely with the police throughout so I get that there is no distinction drawn in the bare statistics - where I take issue is that because of this there is a very false impression given that a large percentage of women lie about being raped - and that simply is not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neoclassic Perk Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Snow - apologies, I should have been more specific - I didn't mean retractions, which, as you say, are rarely an accurate indication of a false allegation In my area at least, a retraction does not result in the writing off of a statistic, the crime is left undetected - but I know that different police forces have different ways of dealing with that, and it is an area where improvements can definitely be made However, there are not infrequent cases where investigation reveals evidence that the "victim" is lying; sometimes as significant as proving the victim and suspect were not even together when the offence allegedly took place! I know of at least one situation where an initial report from a victim was followed by a series of what appeared to be unrelated reports over the following few months; and each of the victims was a friend or associate of the origional victim, although the allged offender (when named) was different It eventually transpired that the origional victim had gained status and kudos within her social circle because of her victimisation; and others close to her were trying to emulate her ! The latter reports were soon *proved* to be false, but even in that instance, the CPS were reluctant to press charges Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Snow - apologies, I should have been more specific - I didn't mean retractions, which, as you say, are rarely an accurate indication of a false allegation In my area at least, a retraction does not result in the writing off of a statistic, the crime is left undetected - but I know that different police forces have different ways of dealing with that, and it is an area where improvements can definitely be made However, there are not infrequent cases where investigation reveals evidence that the "victim" is lying; sometimes as significant as proving the victim and suspect were not even together when the offence allegedly took place! I know of at least one situation where an initial report from a victim was followed by a series of what appeared to be unrelated reports over the following few months; and each of the victims was a friend or associate of the origional victim, although the allged offender (when named) was different It eventually transpired that the origional victim had gained status and kudos within her social circle because of her victimisation; and others close to her were trying to emulate her ! The latter reports were soon *proved* to be false, but even in that instance, the CPS were reluctant to press charges Yeah I can actually understand why the cps didn't press charges even though I might in that instance support them doing so lol The problem is cps got burned big time when they have pressed charges in the past and it transpired that in fact there really had been a rape, and of course there was a case in my local area which the press got wind of and vilified the woman who made the false allegation and then set off on one of their crusades (slow news week probably) it did untold damage to victims and police trust and the fall out from it hasn't yet gone away and it's been many years since it happened - again they weigh the case against the "public interest" test and hence no prosecution. I'm certainly not saying that there are no false allegations made, far from it, but the difficulty lies in public and police perception of the numbers of false claims, I know from experience when I've had a class of police officers in front of me doing the myth busting exercises that I still have to work very hard to get their perception of a retraction to change from it being a "false" allegation to understanding that a victim would willingly choose to make a statement saying she'd lied rather than have to live with the victim label - and I was never 100% certain how effective that message was when they went back to their respective divisions and worked with the "old hands" who had become jaded and set in their ways - and I guess we both know theres still a fair few of those about lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nettie Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 I and my colleagues have been campaigning for decades for judges and juries to have training on the effects and impact of trauma Training judges, yes I can understand, but it would be impossible to train juries, these are just ad hoc men and women who don't even know what trial they will be jury on until the names are called on the first morning of the start of a case, 15 names are called and the defence decides who will be the final 12, the logistics of training a jury just wouldn't work imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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