Racism

[boosboss]

surely doesn't that apply to all the words you put in your list?

if someone uses them in a generic way, that isnt racist, but if someone uses them in a derogatory way, that is racist?

It would if it wasn't for common usage, generally using the term 'Paki' eg, even generically is derogatory, whereas the generic use of the word 'Brit' isn't.

[krusewalker]

But i never wrote that homosexuals cant be racist

The damned comment wasnt a quote. The proper wording is on wikipedia.

After your info, i decided to check Pym Fortyn out again on wikipedia.

Wikipedia does indeed concur with the account of Pym Fortyn that i learnt on this documentary.

That being he was not part of the racist far right movement at all, his anti muslim views to do with his cultural beliefs. He was a staunch defender of the famous dutch social tolerance of minorities, and he regarded the muslim religion as intolerant of these in the same breath that he regarded the old Dutch Reform Church being so...ie, Middle Ages attitudes.

He wasn't specific to muslims per se, but figured the other hardcore intolerant religions had been defeated in his own country, so Islam was the only threat left to gays women etc, so not welcome in Holland.

He wanted to stop anymore Muslims coming in. But for most of the existing illegal immigrants, he wanted to give them an amnesty and citizienship

 

Fortuyn proposed that all people who already resided in the Netherlands would be able to stay, but he emphasized the need of the immigrants to adopt the Dutch society's consensus on human rights as their own. He said "If it were legally possible, I'd say no more Muslims will get in here", claiming that the influx of Muslims would threaten freedoms in the liberal Dutch society. He thought Muslim culture had never undergone a process of modernisation and therefore still lacked acceptance of democracy and women's, gays', lesbians' and minorities' rights, and feared it would dismiss the Dutch legal system in favour of the shari'a law

When asked by the Dutch newspaper Volkskrant whether he hated Islam, he replied: "I don't hate Islam. I consider it a backward culture. I have travelled much in the world. And wherever Islam rules, it's just terrible. All the hypocrisy. It's a bit like those old Reformed Protestants. The Reformed lie all the time. And why is that? Because they have norms and values that are so high that you can't humanly maintain them. You also see that in that Muslim culture. Then look at the Netherlands. In what country could an electoral leader of such a large movement as mine be openly homosexual? How wonderful that that's possible. That's something that one can be proud of. And I'd like to keep it that way, thank you very much." [11]

 

Re the full comment, i dont know anything about far right groups prior to Pym Fortyn, but i got the impression he was being literal here. (Pym Fortyn was an x-communist)

ie, Holland is full. Being one of the most densely populated countries in the world.

My environmental feelings lead to a similar view of the UK at the moment.

 

I cant help noticing that some of his sentiments have matched some of your sentiments in your OP?

JMHO. Not meant as as an offence.

 

It would if it wasn't for common usage, generally using the term 'Paki' eg, even generically is derogatory, whereas the generic use of the word 'Brit' isn't.

not to sure i agree with you there...i think nigga is a generic racist term...unless you are talking about hip hop. whereas paki can go either way. a poster earlier gave an account of a pakistani bus driver that used it.

brit is just a generic term.

[cycas]

Thats interesting, because at school we learned that 'the French' live in France, the 'Germans' live in Germany, and someone who's from Great Britain is called a 'Brit'.

 

In that case, your teacher was incorrect, I think - the correct word would have been British, or in the singular (and almost never used) a Briton - or, of course, and much more likely to be used, an Englishman, Welshman or Scotsman (or woman). I am pretty confident that Brit is a slang contraction, and as such, informal, if not necessarily rude...

 

I dont' think there is an English equivalent of the portmanteau words 'French' and 'German'.

 

This stuff is really hard and languages haven't really evolved to make the distinctions we want to make now, I think.

 

The other day my (Welsh) OH pointed out that the word Welsh is originally a derogatory term, and that it's still often used as a derogatory term. But it's OK to say someone is Welsh, but not Paki, or indeed, Pikey....

 

I don't know what the answer is to this, I think maybe we should avoid all terms that lump people together in a derogatory way, but that is hard to do. I hate the word 'chav' for example, it seems very rude to lump people I don't know together into a sort of insult-group based on what they happen to be wearing that day. But I have found myself using it more than once none the less, because it's such a useful shorthand...

[boosboss]

not to sure i agree with you there...i think nigga is a generic racist term...unless you are talking about hip hop. whereas paki can go either way. a poster earlier gave an account of a pakistani bus driver that used it.

brit is just a generic term.

Both terms are generically offensive, even if some people declare so called 'ownership' of them, like in the hip hop example. The word still carries greater offence to the wider community. Misuse of a word, such as the bus drivers usage doesn't make the word itself inoffensive. However general usage can reduce the offensiveness by removing the derogatory element, for example 'Queer' is used more often now by the gay community and to make it offensive you'd need to add an obscenity to it to create the effect of insult.

[krusewalker]

This stuff is really hard and languages haven't really evolved to make the distinctions we want to make now, I think.

but whom is 'we'? honest question intended

The other day my (Welsh) OH pointed out that the word Welsh is originally a derogatory term, and that it's still often used as a derogatory term. But it's OK to say someone is Welsh, but not Paki, or indeed, Pikey....

pikey...i know loads of people, incl pikeys, that use that one in the generic slang form...interestingly it is used interchangeably with chav as well

I don't know what the answer is to this, I think maybe we should avoid all terms that lump people together in a derogatory way, but that is hard to do. I hate the word 'chav' for example, it seems very rude to lump people I don't know together into a sort of insult-group based on what they happen to be wearing that day. But I have found myself using it more than once none the less, because it's such a useful shorthand...

 

 

However general usage can reduce the offensiveness by removing the derogatory element, for example 'Queer' is used more often now by the gay community and to make it offensive you'd need to add an obscenity to it to create the effect of insult.

that was my thought...its the intention behind the use, not the use.

Edited June 12, 2008 by krusewalker

[BeadyP]

that was my thought...its the intention behind the use, not the use.

 

Is it?

Whether there is intent to be offensive or not, surely how the recipient hears it plays an important part.

[Rudi]

I think black people are offended by the word nigger even when it's used in hip hop. Did anyone see the MOBO awards where one of the winners (don't remember her name) went on stage and use the opportunity to completely rip into the "artists" who use the word nigger and call women whores and bitches in their music She was very angry and awesome.

[cycas]

Is it?

Whether there is intent to be offensive or not, surely how the recipient hears it plays an important part.

 

 

It is, however, hard to anticipate how someone you don't know well will react to a particular word, specially if you hadn't even registered that the person is of a different ethnicity to yourself. There are some words where youd think most people would be pretty sure that it's safest just not to use them at all, but someone's vocabulary of Bad Words does depend to an extent on who they talk to and what sort of language they hear.

 

Not everyone watches TV or listens to the radio, and some people are less sensitive to language than others.

 

I am uncomfortable with the idea that because someone has failed to pick up a language shift (eg, from 'coloured' to 'black' ) or has not realised that a word is OK when used by a member of the same group, but not by people outside that group (eg, Paki, Queer) they are being deliberately offensive, rather than just confused.

[ranirottie]

I'm sure that the topic title grabbed your attention, and that I'm risking opening up a huge can of very nasty worms. It's something that I know is playing on many people's minds and I also think that something like this can be discussed on the Refuge (wouldn't dare discussing this on a so-called "political" board, because the repercussions are too ugly to even contemplate! ).

 

Right, here goes: I do not consider myself to be at all racist, quite the opposite, I hate racism and intolerance towards anyone because of their skin colour, cultural background, sexual identity etc. I hate the BNP with a passion, BUT I also have a very strong dislike for people who live in this country but cannot/ will not respect the fact that this is a western country with western values. Now before anyone thinks I'm talking about Ahmed who has got a pakistani grocery shop: one thing that seriously riles me is the do-gooders (not!) who think expression of Britain's own cultural heritage should not be allowed for fear of offending people of a different nationality/cultural background. I think it was the Red Cross (Red Cross for crying out loud!) who told volunteers in their charity shops that they should not decorate the shops for Christmas because it would offend non-christians Now I'm sure that when they thought that out that they weren't thinking of old Dutch me, who does not have time for any religion at all. But did they ever ask any non-christians if they're offended by it? Didn't think so. At least non of the non-Christians, of non-European origin, I ever bothered to ask were offended in the slightest:rolleyes: They were more worried about the impression that other people might have that they were trying to get a country's celebrations, that have been around for donkey's years, banned because of their perceived intolerance towards them.

 

Another bright light MP last week proposed another Bank Holiday, to celebrate the contributions that the Poles have made to this country. Every single Pole interviewed about this by the BBC thought that this was the most lunatic idea ever. Tensions are already running high in some areas where many Poles live, and the last thing that they want is for a national holiday to be announced which will be the reason for even more tension!

 

I like seeing shops decorated with little lights for Diwali - it's not my religion, but I have learnt that it is an important celebration and I consider it an expansion of my general knowledge that I know kind of what it is and what it is called.

I hate Eid, NOT because it is an islamic celebration, but because I am horrified and disgusted by the way the sheep are being killed to mark it - as I am by the slaughter of millions of turkeys to "celebrate" Christmas.

 

Having said all that, it does wind me up no end, when I see a group of people (and I'm sure they are a minority) chant all sorts of "death to Britain" type slogans, because there has been a culture clash - I'm not talking about the war in Iraq btw. While, like I said, I totally believe in respect and tolerance for other cultures, I really strongly feel that this has to be mutual AND that there should be some consideration for the dominant culture of a country. Britain is a western country, with western values. If you don't like that, then this country might not be suitable for you, simple as. Before I get shot to pieces: I am not at all referring to one specific nationality or what have ya. I'm Dutch and I spent years travelling about looking for a country where I wanted to live, because I didn't like it where I was born. When I was travelling, I learned what a country's most important 'rules and regulations' were, and so I wore long sleeved tops and long trousers in some places and took my shoes off before entering some religious buildings. I never felt offended that I was expected to do this, because it was part of a country's culture. If that offends me then I shouldn't have been there.

 

Okay, I'll put a lid on it here before this ends up in a monologue rather than a convo (it might still do, I do take my time to get my point across ), I just hope that what I've just said is coming across the way I intended it to - although I am sure that if this is not the case I will be pulled up sharpish

 

 

 

oooo I could have written that myself, I agree 1000%. x

[melissa]

I think that racist remarks can come from any person to a person who is not of the same colour/nationality as them. I have 2 mixed race nephews who have experienced it from white and black people, I think it is possible to stereotype people from certain countries/cultures and that can be perceived as racism and infact probably is! A word that is often used about Britain is that we 'tolerate' all nationalities/races of people, to me tolerate means to put up with not accept. I was brought up that there are nice and not so nice people in the world, their colour, race, religion is irrelavent I have passed that on to my daughter and can honestly say that I believe that to be true. I reserve the right not to like someone who happens not to be of the same colour, nationality or religion as me - but it wont ever be because of those reasons!It is usually because for whatever reason we just don't gel, they are selfish, spiteful, rude- traits that can apply to every living person!

[safneo]

What really drives me insane is how we allow "OUR" flag to be burnt in public, "OUR" servicemen and women being abused and "OUR" traditions being stamped on in "OUR" country

 

I dont mind people of other nationalities living here, in fact it makes a beautiful tapestry, but as in other countries around the world they should respect the British way of life and the things that we hold dear to our wonderful country if they want to live here

 

I think as a nation, we should be able to fly our flag without risk of offending others and having others 'deface' them. If they dont like our nation then bugger of somewhere else!

 

if i had my way we would live in an athiest state.

 

all religious belief is welcome -as long as it stays within the home/building bought/paid for by the believers.

no public displays

all religious practice must conform with UK laws(ie killing of animals)

no tax breaks for religion

 

you can believe anything you want-man on cross, flying to heaven on a pig, multiple lives, witchcraft-even santa claus-as long as you do it in the sanctuary of your home, and dont expect me to pay for/respect/value what i fundamentally believe is a waste of precious time-opium of the masses indeed

 

fee

 

This would be my ideal!

 

I find the term 'Brit' racist but it is still widely used.

 

I think you might be in the minority, and I struggle to understand why. Is it not just a shortened version of Briton?

 

I hate all this religious rubbish! I dont care what colour a person is or what religion they are as long as they respect my opinions as I respect theirs. I don't want people trying to force their religion, whatever it may be on me, and certainly not newcomers.

 

I work for a multicultural and multi national company and the amount of racism that occurs is appalling! And I have to say that the minority comes from english born white people. In fact the 'preference' *cant think of the right word* is to err on the side of caution towards the various ethnic majority (in the case of our company) as they make up the majority of the workforce. This causes more friction as some are then seen as favoured. We have special toilets for one religion and some have extra breaks etc....

 

I think political correctness can go just too far!!

 

apologies if ethnic is the wrong word to use...... just trying to cover nationality and religion.

Edited July 10, 2008 by safneo

[murtle]

For those unsure of why they term Brit may be considered offensive, here is a link for you

 

http://www.antimoon.com/forum/t1231-0.htm

 

(I didn't know either)

 

It's quite an interesting discussion actually as it has terms for others

 

i.e. Yanks

Krauts etc

Edited July 11, 2008 by murtle

[snow]

Perfect illustration of PC gone mad and the way people can choose to hear/see racism where there is none ...

 

Dallas County officials spar over 'black hole' comment

 

5:34 PM Mon, Jul 07, 2008

 

Kevin Krause

 

A special meeting about Dallas County traffic tickets turned tense and bizarre this afternoon.

 

County commissioners were discussing problems with the central collections office that is used to process traffic ticket payments and handle other paperwork normally done by the JP Courts.

 

Commissioner Kenneth Mayfield, who is white, said it seemed that central collections "has become a black hole" because paperwork reportedly has become lost in the office.

 

Commissioner John Wiley Price, who is black, interrupted him with a loud "Excuse me!" He then corrected his colleague, saying the office has become a "white hole."

 

That prompted Judge Thomas Jones, who is black, to demand an apology from Mayfield for his racially insensitive analogy.

 

Mayfield shot back that it was a figure of speech and a science term. A black hole, according to Webster's, is perhaps "the invisible remains of a collapsed star, with an intense gravitational field from which neither light nor matter can escape."

 

Other county officials quickly interceded to break it up and get the meeting back on track. TV news cameras were rolling, after all.

 

http://cityhallblog.dallasnews.com/archive...g-turns-ra.html

[Kathyw]

I agree with Billy and Red Rotties 100%.

My real bug bear is that scits and welsh are allowed to say 'I am' yet if we define ourselves as English we are wrong I always cross out british on forms and write English.

 

Also that odious thing nicknamed the hook used to parade up and down upper street with his henchmen. Calling for death for brits.

They burnt our flag and nothing was done, they abused women in the street, nothing was done.

 

If I went to his country and called for the death of it's inhabitants - how long would I spend in their prisons?

 

If you choose to live in this country (and no-one if forced to) then obey the laws of the land.

If you don't like this country - sod off - no-one will hold you back.

[kimthecat]

I hate Eid, NOT because it is an islamic celebration, but because I am horrified and disgusted by the way the sheep are being killed to mark it -

 

I haven't read the thread so sorry if this has been covered. I understand that the sheep have their throats slit with out stunning first. Does that happen in this country? I know it does in France.

If it does, then it shouldn't be allowed. AFAIK farm animals in the UK have to be stunned first before slaughter and I believe its illegal not to do this.

Ali