Racism

[BillyMalc]

I'm sure that the topic title grabbed your attention, and that I'm risking opening up a huge can of very nasty worms. It's something that I know is playing on many people's minds and I also think that something like this can be discussed on the Refuge (wouldn't dare discussing this on a so-called "political" board, because the repercussions are too ugly to even contemplate! ).

 

Right, here goes: I do not consider myself to be at all racist, quite the opposite, I hate racism and intolerance towards anyone because of their skin colour, cultural background, sexual identity etc. I hate the BNP with a passion, BUT I also have a very strong dislike for people who live in this country but cannot/ will not respect the fact that this is a western country with western values. Now before anyone thinks I'm talking about Ahmed who has got a pakistani grocery shop: one thing that seriously riles me is the do-gooders (not!) who think expression of Britain's own cultural heritage should not be allowed for fear of offending people of a different nationality/cultural background. I think it was the Red Cross (Red Cross for crying out loud!) who told volunteers in their charity shops that they should not decorate the shops for Christmas because it would offend non-christians Now I'm sure that when they thought that out that they weren't thinking of old Dutch me, who does not have time for any religion at all. But did they ever ask any non-christians if they're offended by it? Didn't think so. At least non of the non-Christians, of non-European origin, I ever bothered to ask were offended in the slightest:rolleyes: They were more worried about the impression that other people might have that they were trying to get a country's celebrations, that have been around for donkey's years, banned because of their perceived intolerance towards them.

 

Another bright light MP last week proposed another Bank Holiday, to celebrate the contributions that the Poles have made to this country. Every single Pole interviewed about this by the BBC thought that this was the most lunatic idea ever. Tensions are already running high in some areas where many Poles live, and the last thing that they want is for a national holiday to be announced which will be the reason for even more tension!

 

I like seeing shops decorated with little lights for Diwali - it's not my religion, but I have learnt that it is an important celebration and I consider it an expansion of my general knowledge that I know kind of what it is and what it is called.

I hate Eid, NOT because it is an islamic celebration, but because I am horrified and disgusted by the way the sheep are being killed to mark it - as I am by the slaughter of millions of turkeys to "celebrate" Christmas.

 

Having said all that, it does wind me up no end, when I see a group of people (and I'm sure they are a minority) chant all sorts of "death to Britain" type slogans, because there has been a culture clash - I'm not talking about the war in Iraq btw. While, like I said, I totally believe in respect and tolerance for other cultures, I really strongly feel that this has to be mutual AND that there should be some consideration for the dominant culture of a country. Britain is a western country, with western values. If you don't like that, then this country might not be suitable for you, simple as. Before I get shot to pieces: I am not at all referring to one specific nationality or what have ya. I'm Dutch and I spent years travelling about looking for a country where I wanted to live, because I didn't like it where I was born. When I was travelling, I learned what a country's most important 'rules and regulations' were, and so I wore long sleeved tops and long trousers in some places and took my shoes off before entering some religious buildings. I never felt offended that I was expected to do this, because it was part of a country's culture. If that offends me then I shouldn't have been there.

 

Okay, I'll put a lid on it here before this ends up in a monologue rather than a convo (it might still do, I do take my time to get my point across ), I just hope that what I've just said is coming across the way I intended it to - although I am sure that if this is not the case I will be pulled up sharpish

[one.eyed.dog]

Billie and I had a big conversation last week about this on a dog walk. I totally agree with her. 100%

[krusewalker]

id quite happily see christmas decorations banned from all public buildings...they feckin drive me nuts

[chickentikka]

Racism runs in all directions, there is aggro between different asian, eastern european, black and various other permutations of ethnic groups that are lumped into 'one type'. The home office only recognizes a racist incident if it is by a white person against another race, not vice versa or in the 'inter racial' scenarios.

 

I think everyone should be able to express their religion or beliefs either by the place they worship, choice of dress or the jewellery/adornments they chose to wear. I also believe that there should be understanding and acceptance between faiths and races.

 

Wholly agree that christians have total freedom to express their faith but what gets me is a nano percentage of 'white british' actually go to church, live any sort of christian life, but jump onto a 'the Sun says' bandwagon of any perceived 'attack' on the christian ways.

[BillyMalc]

id quite happily see christmas decorations banned from all public buildings...they feckin drive me nuts

 

Fair enough (I hate Christmas, so you wouldn't hear me complain!), but not because Mr Jones thinks they should be banned because they could offend Mr Abdul because he is muslim. It completely beats me why Mr Abdul would be offended by a country, that has got a christian heritage, celebrating something that is part of its religion. I am sure it beats Mr Abdul himself as well why anyone would think that he'd be offended.

 

Let's face it: if anyone would cause a scene because people are celebrating Eid or Diwali, they'd be called racist and what not. Then why on earth should christian celebrations be toned down out of fear of offending those people we have just said should be able to celebrate their Eid/Diwali/WhatHaveYa?

Just to reiterate: I'm not christian or otherwise religious in any way, shape or form, just like many other people who do however like to celebrate christmas and aren't at all pleased that some do-gooder tells them that, in the spirit of peace and understanding, they should be quiet about it, and pretend that nothing's going on.

[chickentikka]

they should be quiet about it, and pretend that nothing's going on.

Santa who

[Jacobean]

Marian you put how I feel so much better than I ever could.

 

I imagine Mr Abdul feels our government is being very condescending and pompous telling him how he feels about things.

[Red Rotties]

What really drives me insane is how we allow "OUR" flag to be burnt in public, "OUR" servicemen and women being abused and "OUR" traditions being stamped on in "OUR" country

 

I dont mind people of other nationalities living here, in fact it makes a beautiful tapestry, but as in other countries around the world they should respect the British way of life and the things that we hold dear to our wonderful country if they want to live here

[Brenda]

I think your post is excellent Billy and I agree with you 100%

[kay_w1]

Wholeheartedly agree 100% with everything that Billy and Red Rotties said

[chickentikka]

but what is OUR and what is suddenly produced as OUR traditions when it has not been bothered about for years. I'm proud to be british but cannot stand this 'new day white british christian' stance which is a total lie. I have nothing against individuals in the military services (my brother was in the army for 18 years) but I cannot agree with the wars that the government is currently waging and sending OUR soldiers, brothers, sisters, mums and dads to die in.

 

Scratch my surface and you'll find a white british royalist but I feel very alienated from my peers

[reds]

Wierd one for me. I've never really felt much Nationality as such and have never ever felt or described myself as 'English', always British. BNP and the like, as far as I am concerned, are an absolute shame on the Nation and I even struggle with people having Union Jack's outside their home. To me the latter is like putting up a barrier, a discriminating 'them and us' stance. I know it should mean pride in the country you consider your home but due to the racism problems here it makes me shudder inside (because of the way that symbol has been used).

 

I do agree with you Billy but one thing that really grates me is that it is mutual on both sides of the water. So many people forget about all the ex-pats who set up 'ex-pat' zones when they emigrate. What about all the English bars, clubs and cafes in Greece and Spain etc. I would wager that the majority of ex-pat's abroad choose to eat, dress and live in British ways and mark out British associates..... Can't have it one way and not the other.

National holidays are national holidays and lets face it, many many people don't celebrate them out of religious beliefs anyway. One of my best friends at school was a Jehova's (sp?) Witness and I would feel uncomfortable when Christmas was a conversation topic. But!!! she never felt uncomfortable and was happy to receive cards, not for the meaning of the cards but for the meaning behind the giving. She was happy with her chosen way and beliefs and had no problem with the chosen ways of others. Isn't that what it should be? 'Banning Christmas' is not being inclusive, quite the opposite.

Edited June 7, 2008 by reds

[krusewalker]

I cannot be proud of the British way of life. British culture...aside from music and film and comedy - pretty much sucks. Its a bland country full of moody whiny aggressive greedy paranoid people...so its America (but with less smiling and not such great scenery).

New Zealand is way better. Probably even Denmark, although the Danes arent very sociable, which the Brits are good at.

Quite like flags though..nothing wrong with having your own flag outside your house.

Thats pretty normal and a a total non-issue in every country in the world, apart from this one. I like the French and Turkish approach...ban all religious practices, dress, and symbolism from all state institutions....also the state calendar should not feature any religious festivals/holidays...by all means have public bank holdiays on those dates, but call them something like winter bank holiday or whatever, and people can celebrate them as they wish, so its not so in our face.

But i admire the Danes for their balls....its acceptable in a modern secular society to satirise christianity, so it should be for Islam. And what do all their politicians do in the face of economic and terroist threats...stand up for the freedom of the press.

Even the most left wing liberal politician in DK said if Muslims want to live in DK just to force their religion onto that society, then they can move out. Now, when would a politician say anything like that in this country?? Spineless lot...not even The Sun had the balls to print the cartoons.

[Fee]

Good post Billy, and well put

 

I totally agree that people who choose to live in, or for that matter visit, another country should be sensitive to the culture and traditions of that country and prepared to at least live alongside them, if not actively embrace them.

 

I have to agree with Reds' point though. Some of the very worst examples of cultural insensitivity, bad behaviour and sometimes downright loutishness I have ever seen have been from British people living or holidaying abroad.

[BillyMalc]

I have to agree with Reds' point though. Some of the very worst examples of cultural insensitivity, bad behaviour and sometimes downright loutishness I have ever seen have been from British people living or holidaying abroad.

 

Yup, have been a witness of that (too) many a time whilst travelling, and I'm sure it's put a few people off ever wanting to come and visit Britain, leave alone wanting to move here. It completely illustrates my point though, about the need to show respect for a country's culture, whether you're on your own or with 100 mates, there for work or for a holiday.

 

Krusewalker - I totally respected the Danish government for standing by the newspaper that printed the cartoons - although I must say that I would have preferred if no cartoons of any religion would be printed. I don't want to be confronted by people who want to persuade me that their religion is so great, so I respect that they would be just as annoyed/offended if someone would use their power to rub their faces in it in a national newspaper that they think that the other person's religion is rubbish. That said, I never ever buy the Sun or the Daily Hate Mail, because I find their content mostly offensive.

 

As far as Turkey goes though, don't know if you've ever been there but outside of Istanbul and the tourist resorts a majority of women wear headscarves. Christianity might be allowed in this predominantly muslim country (which surely is a step forward compared to some other islamic countries), but other than that Turkey has got the most horrid reputation for human rights. I wouldn't want to use it as a country that has got it right in terms of "respect"