khanu Posted September 12, 2007 Report Share Posted September 12, 2007 Guess I just don't see the problem with using a muzzle as a short term solution to prevent harm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alison Posted September 12, 2007 Report Share Posted September 12, 2007 The fact is that I (& I would think most dog owners here) also take my dogs out on a lead, I don't let them rome. I don't let them wander into other peoples gardens etc but I don't therefore think it unreasonable that I should expect them to be able to go into their own garden without worry. I fail to see how that's an "I'm alright Jack attitude" or how your suggestion of a neighbour / dog owner having to muzzle their dog in their garden whilst cats / owner just go on as always - including it appears into their neighbours garden at will is in any way a compromise from the cat owner. I couldn't agree more Ian. Until my erstwhile foster boy Dino left a cartoon style dog-shaped hole in my fence during the course of giving chase (and catching) my neighbour's cat, I hadn't appreciated the difference between a cat chaser and a cat killer. I hasten to add that the cat not only survived the ordeal but was back in my garden sticking two fingers up at him again 4 days later, quite definitely taunting him to repeat the incident. As previously stated, cat chasers are one thing but I don't think that a dog such as a recently retired racing greyhound would be deterred by even the highest most solid fence - he/she'd probably just end up injured in the pursuit*. Instinct is just too powerful, at least until you've had chance to work with the dog and attempt to train that out of him. Every other dog I've owned or fostered has thoroughly enjoyed chasing cats to the boundary of my property, as have the cats - I'm assuming that the cats enjoy the sport as they not only come back for more but are distinctly disappointed when the dogs shrug their shoulders and walk away. Dino's victim Jasmine, whose owners said would be traumatised for life, actually sits on the top of the fence (and/or repeatedly jumps back into the garden), yowling and trying to tempt Sol to react and is very noticeably miffed when he doesn't. She must spend a lot of her time as a very cheesed off cat as he never does, fortunately for her. Traumatised for life? The little devil (and she really is a very loveable one) wasn't even traumatised for days! I truly love every kind of animal and would be devastated for both owner and cat were their pet harmed, but I've taken every reasonable step possible to ensure that the garden is secure and really can do no more. I suppose I could have a wall built and have actually looked into this for aesthetic purposes but unfortunately I don't have a spare £12k kicking around. If cats are daft enough to keep coming back for more, then why should I let their foolishness impinge on my dogs' lives and liberties? In my experience, cats are incredibly smart creatures - witness how they manipulate us so expertly and learn lessons within the blink of an eye if there's some advantage in it for them. Jasmine cat has literally hundreds of safe acres to roam in and myriad non-doggie gardens to explore and go mousing in so why, when she'd already endured a hideous near-death experience in Dino's jaws did she come looking for more of the same from exactly the same dog (while her stitches were healing) just days later? As I genuinely do not believe that cats are in any way thick or forgetful, I can only conclude that some like living on the edge and looking for trouble and I'm b*ggerd if I'm going to make a dog wear a muzzle in his own garden because of it. Cats are free to roam as they choose and can easily avoid certain places; our dogs cannot. *Edited to say that Dino actually came off worst in the incident and ended up with serious bruising, an infection and dangerously high temperature as a result of busting through my very solid fence. I get along very nicely with my neighbours but have made it abundantly clear that I will be extremely angry if their cat causes any such injury to a dog in my care again as a result of coming and baiting him on his own territory. The onus as far as I (and now they) am concerned is on them to keep their cat out of my garden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycas Posted September 12, 2007 Report Share Posted September 12, 2007 I have 2 pointy dogs, and they both have muzzles. I would use one short-term in the garden. In fact, I did exactly that when I got Mollydog, until she worked out the cats were too scary to chase. It's a different thing if the dog reacts badly to it, like Fee mentioned her Sophie did. My pointies are not particularly bothered, though they don't like wearing them, it doesn't majorly stress them either. If I thought my dogs were going to have a go at a cat in the garden, I think a muzzle would be quite good protection for the dog, let alone the cat. Cats aren't rabbits: I think dog owners tend to assume that the confrontation will inevitably go all one way, but it doesn't always. Cats are quite big, they carry a lot of weapons, and they are more agile than dogs. The first and only time Mollydog tried to chase one of my cats, she so came off worse. So much for the killer instinct of my racing greyhound... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alison Posted September 12, 2007 Report Share Posted September 12, 2007 I would use one short-term in the garden. Further to my previous post, this is what I did with Dino. He was fortunate in that he was able to spend an awful lot of time roaming free in fields and woodland so didn't actually need to use the garden much anyway, plus it was winter and he wasn't bothered about spending time there. It did seem sensible to muzzle him if he wanted to nip out for a pee though (I was housetraining him at the time). If I thought my dogs were going to have a go at a cat in the garden, I think a muzzle would be quite good protection for the dog, let alone the cat. Cats aren't rabbits: I think dog owners tend to assume that the confrontation will inevitably go all one way, but it doesn't always. Cats are quite big, they carry a lot of weapons, and they are more agile than dogs. The first and only time Mollydog tried to chase one of my cats, she so came off worse. So much for the killer instinct of my racing greyhound... I agree, although I would not tolerate the use of a muzzle as a solution in the longer term. Cats can inflict a lot of damage to a dog and that Dino (also a racing greyhound) wasn't blinded was nothing short of miraculous. The only reason the cat survived is that she clung to his head and face like some sort of bizarrre furry hat/mask, preventing him from shaking her and snapping her spine, but of course the more he tried to shake her off, the more scratches he was sustaining around his eyes. I would argue on that point though that this particular cat is so bolshie that she'd probably have capitalised on the fact that Dino was defenceless (i.e. wearing a muzzle) and attacked him once she found that he could chase but not harm her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycas Posted September 12, 2007 Report Share Posted September 12, 2007 If you don't think cats should come into your garden, how do you feel about rabbits? Foxes? Squirrels? Rats? Foxes can get pretty much anywhere cats can, and squirrels into places that they can't. If Dino had chased a fox or a pheasant and injured himself, how would that have been different? I'm not saying you should muzzle your dogs, but honestly, if a dog is going to crash straight through a solid fence, I don't think that's the cat's fault or his owners, it's just one of those 'OMG I never thought he'd do THAT' moments. Like it or not, our gardens are not sanctuaries just for us. Other animals go in and out. You can fence yourself in, but you cannot forever fence the world out, as Gandalf would say! Cats are much harder to fence than dogs. A cheap 6 foot fence will hold most dogs in: a cat will just run over it. Keeping dogs in is easy. Keeping cats in is like herding fog. ... Mollydog says: you don't want to get too close to a squirrel. They bite you on the NOSE! It HURTS! Keep a good foot clear at all times when chasing, is the motto of the Mollydog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sproggie14 Posted September 12, 2007 Report Share Posted September 12, 2007 I'm not much of a cat fan myself. Well, tell a lie, I like them indoors, it's when they are out roaming free, killing things and pooping in gardens that I don't like them. I'm unlikely to have cats again myself cos I'm not sure how some of the dogs would be with them and I'd have to keep them indoors or in a secure garden for their safety and my own sense of responsibility really. Anyway, I do agree that a cat is the responsibility of the owner not those who own the gardens they choose to visit but I think that's a bit academic really. You're still talking about a living creature who deserves to be treated with care and respect. The fact that it has an owner doesn't change that. Loki would chase cats but is thankfully a bit too slow and stupid to catch one in our garden. However, if I thought there was a risk I would first restrict her access to the garden while I established who the owner was and warned them/asked them to do what they could. I would certainly consider muzzling her short term to help give the cat a warning. I would ask the owner to pay for necessary measures to cat proof my garden if that didn't work. If they refused then I would probably end up paying for it myself. Not my responsibility but does it really matter whose responsibility it is? What matters is making sure an animal doesn't get killed regardless of who owns it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fee Posted September 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2007 I've had - many years ago - a situation where a greyhound got hold of a fox in the garden. It was horrible, the fox was badly injured and I had to call the RSPCA out to catch it and pts. The dog was also covered in bites and scratches. I had literally wrestled the dog to the ground to get the fox out of his mouth - and as I was 8 months pregnant at the time that wasn't easy My dogs have also caught the occasional rabbit - I think about three over the last 10 years. It's a shame, but I'm not prepared to stop letting them offlead or muzzle them outside just in case. I avoid times and places where it's most likely to happen, give fair warning (in the form of Meg barking her way down the field ahead of us ) and hope the local wildlife has enough sense of self-preservation to get out of the way. I don't like the idea of my dogs killing anything, but I feel wild animals to some extent have to take their chances. Most of them are wary and savy enough to keep out of danger. The big difference in purely selfish terms is that I won't have to turn up on somebody's doorstep carrying a sad little body that will break their heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katiebob Posted September 12, 2007 Report Share Posted September 12, 2007 (edited) If you don't think cats should come into your garden, how do you feel about rabbits? Foxes? Squirrels? Rats? Foxes can get pretty much anywhere cats can, and squirrels into places that they can't. If Dino had chased a fox or a pheasant and injured himself, how would that have been different? I'm not saying you should muzzle your dogs, but honestly, if a dog is going to crash straight through a solid fence, I don't think that's the cat's fault or his owners, it's just one of those 'OMG I never thought he'd do THAT' moments. Like it or not, our gardens are not sanctuaries just for us. Other animals go in and out. You can fence yourself in, but you cannot forever fence the world out, as Gandalf would say! Cats are much harder to fence than dogs. A cheap 6 foot fence will hold most dogs in: a cat will just run over it. Keeping dogs in is easy. Keeping cats in is like herding fog. ... Mollydog says: you don't want to get too close to a squirrel. They bite you on the NOSE! It HURTS! Keep a good foot clear at all times when chasing, is the motto of the Mollydog. Fantastic reply Couldn't have put it better myself. We have 2 lurchers(one an ex-coursing lurcher), 2 greys (both ex-racers), a border collie & 5 rough collies, 10 cats of our own and (currently) 4 foster cats. We also have loads of wildlife. Sometimes the wildlife get eaten. To date, the cats have not. Some of our cats like to 'accompany' our dogs on walks when the walks are on our land We use muzzles for 'exciting' walks. I'm not advocating muzzles for every time a dog is let into the garden, but I think it's sensible (for the safety of both cat and dog) to take reasonable precautions until you're confident about the outcome of a meeting. Edited September 12, 2007 by Katiebob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alison Posted September 13, 2007 Report Share Posted September 13, 2007 If you don't think cats should come into your garden, how do you feel about rabbits? Foxes? Squirrels? Rats? Foxes can get pretty much anywhere cats can, and squirrels into places that they can't. If Dino had chased a fox or a pheasant and injured himself, how would that have been different? I'm not saying you should muzzle your dogs, but honestly, if a dog is going to crash straight through a solid fence, I don't think that's the cat's fault or his owners, it's just one of those 'OMG I never thought he'd do THAT' moments. Like it or not, our gardens are not sanctuaries just for us. Other animals go in and out. You can fence yourself in, but you cannot forever fence the world out, as Gandalf would say! Cats are much harder to fence than dogs. A cheap 6 foot fence will hold most dogs in: a cat will just run over it. Keeping dogs in is easy. Keeping cats in is like herding fog. ... Mollydog says: you don't want to get too close to a squirrel. They bite you on the NOSE! It HURTS! Keep a good foot clear at all times when chasing, is the motto of the Mollydog. I'm not saying that cats shouldn't come into my garden, just that their owners (and the cats themselves) know the potential consequences and that I have done everything within my power to ensure that the garden is as escape proof (dog-wise) as is reasonably practicable. The cat could spend the whole night every night of every week in complete safety in my garden if she felt inclined to do so and finds it so fascinating. No need to be there during the day whatsoever unless her sole purpose for doing so is to get an adrenalin rush from taunting dogs and getting chased. As my neighbours' cat is allowed out day and night, I wonder how they'd feel about her getting attacked by a fox? As for foxes, the hunting with dogs ban has made no difference here whether I agree with it or not and it continues unabated. The Quorn and Belvoir cub hunting seasons start in a fortnight. Concomitantly, we see very few foxes where I live and none would be stupid enough to enter the garden of a dog residence other than when the dog was not there - country foxes are completely different to the urban variety and retain their "hound avoidance" instincts. Evidently the rabbits, squirrels and rats are equally savvy as I've never seen one in my garden in 11 years of living here. They must come as I see evidence in the form of droppings but they're obviously sensible enough to do it when there are no dogs around. I respect of "OMG I never thought he'd do that", as previously stated, Dino was subsequently muzzled when he went out into the garden. Bolshie cat Jasmine may well push Sol too far one day and end up injured as a result but there's no way I'm going to muzzle The Ginga who enjoys lazing out there unfettered in the sunshine. It's my neighbours' cat, Jasmine knows how many beans make 5, has been taught an extremely salutary lesson so its up to the cat and her owners how to deal with the situation. Mine and Sol's garden is our sanctuary though not exclusively ours because we're more than happy to time share. Cats and assorted wildlife are entirely welcome to use it when we aren't. They do and that's fine by us. All of this is slightly academic anyway as Sol is just a mildly interested chaser at worst and most probably far too slow to catch anything but I suppose I was responding with Dino in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyM Posted September 13, 2007 Report Share Posted September 13, 2007 If you don't think cats should come into your garden, how do you feel about rabbits? Foxes? Squirrels? Rats? Ahhh but the difference is that when it comes to it, the cat belongs to someone else and is someone else's responsibility. Saying that, if Dharma or Seth caught any animal in my garden, much as I wouldn't like it, I wouldn't muzzle them for it. Dharma's played "solo fetch" with a hedgehog - threw it around, caught it, repeated. I stopped her, hedgehog went on his way. I don't think it necessitates her wearing a muzzle, not that I would feel any different if she'd killed it. If she caught a rat or a squirrel in her garden, I'd feel the same. When it comes to a cat though it's noone else's responsibility other than their owner. They allow the cat to roam, they take the risks with it, don't they? That's not saying those that won't prevent their dogs getting them actually *want* that to happen. It's just it's their garden and it's not our responsibility. Turning it round, and ignoring the legalities, how would you feel if a burglar came into your home and was bitten by one of your dogs? Would you muzzle your dog indoors from then on, just in case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycas Posted September 13, 2007 Report Share Posted September 13, 2007 Kathy, if you read my posts again, you will see that I have several times said I don't feel dogs should generally be muzzled in their own gardens. I would be prepared to muzzle my own dogs short-term if I had was trying to teach a specific individual to be wary, or if I had reason to suppose my dog would definitely kill the animal in question, in the same way that I would muzzle them out walking if they were constantly bringing me back dead rabbits, deer and yorkshire terriers. As it happens, like most dogs, although they love a good chase, they are not killers so this precaution isn't necessary. Neither of them actually knows how to kill another animal, let alone one as big and fierce as a cat. I strongly suspect that this actually applies to quite a lot of dogs, but that people assume the dog wants to kill the cat because he's making such a fuss about it. I think the burglar thing is a false parallel and I can't really see how it relates at all. People are not cats. Dogs are not cats. Cats are not dogs or people. The rules are different, the brains and expectations are different. You might as well ask if I were planning to send my cats to university. I was responding specifically to this statement by Alison: " I get along very nicely with my neighbours but have made it abundantly clear that I will be extremely angry if their cat causes any such injury to a dog in my care again as a result of coming and baiting him on his own territory. The onus as far as I (and now they) am concerned is on them to keep their cat out of my garden " A dog that will run through a solid fence to chase a cat and hurt himself in the process will do so to chase other things, and I cannot see the argument for blaming the chasee in that particular case. Re the fox behaviour thing: I too live in a rural area with rural foxes, and yes, they are generally warier than the urban ones - but last summer I found a fox cub asleep on my patio, right next to the kitchen door. He'd been snacking on my grapes and then had stopped for a nap. I have also had fox cubs come in through my catflap and scoff the catfood. I don't think you can say that foxes will automatically keep clear of dogs, any more than cats will: my doors were wide open and the hounds might have gone out there at any moment. The question about foxes putting cats at risk is a vexed one: people talk about it, but when I researched this a while ago, I was unable to find any non-anecdotal evidence of foxes predating on or attacking adult healthy cats. We have never experienced any problems, and have always lived in areas with generous supplies of both. I can't see what the motivation would be for the fox. For dogs they chase for fun, as they generally have plenty of food energy and not enough to do with it, but foxes lives are interesting enough without having to chase cats, and it would be awfully dangerous for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kats inc Posted September 13, 2007 Report Share Posted September 13, 2007 Think the muzzling thing has been taken way out of proportion I took it to mean muzzling a dog that would be likely to catch and harm a cat until the cat got the message and therefore the danger would be over. It wouldn't be a forever more solution and probably not even needed for most dogs - mainly just the pointy dog variety that are quick enough (and more likely to be motivated enough) to catch and kill. This is what I meant Kelly,just a short term thing until the cat(s) learn that the dog chases.They may have never come across a dog before.I know with mine for example,Sophie is the only dog they really ever meet.Jemima has never met an unfriendly dog in her life so is likely to think all dogs are fine and would need to learn that some dogs aren't.She is so dog friendly she would wander up to most dogs and say hello.I suppose it's tough luck on her then is it if she happens to try and be friendly with an unfriendly dog? From what some of you post I feel you would have little sympathy if this was to occur and she was hurt as a result. I really can't see the point in everyone arguing about which is more important dogs or cats,they are equally important and neither should come to harm.That's why I firmly believe in compromise where ever possible. Cycas your posts are excellent.Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoebejo Posted September 13, 2007 Report Share Posted September 13, 2007 I chose to allow my cats freedom to come and go as they please, with the exeption of brain damaged Rosie, and with that I must accept the risks involved. Should one of my cats be killed or injured by a dog upon entering it's garden then it's my fault, nobody elses. I don't expect dog owners to cat proof their garden for me. I have litter trays in the house and a section of the front garden where my cats like to toilet so I would hope toileting in other peoples gardens is at a minimum. From what I've seen, my cats and the local rural foxes get along very well together There is often fox poo in my garden and on my wall and I've seen a fox sat alongside the cats on the wall too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trallwm farm Posted September 13, 2007 Report Share Posted September 13, 2007 Think the muzzling thing has been taken way out of proportion I took it to mean muzzling a dog that would be likely to catch and harm a cat until the cat got the message and therefore the danger would be over. It wouldn't be a forever more solution and probably not even needed for most dogs - mainly just the pointy dog variety that are quick enough (and more likely to be motivated enough) to catch and kill. Obviously I meant it would be a temp measure to keep everyone safe whilst the animals find thier own level but threads are like chinese whispers and it gets changed according to the game plan of the next reader. To keep ANY animal muzzled or contained in anything less than a natural way to me is wrong but on a short term measure untill issues are resolved it seems in the best interests of all the animals. If a dog DID kill a cat albeit on someones own property you can guarantee by the end of the day it would be called a dangerous possible child killer so as far as I can see its best to accomadate all owners and all animals in the first instance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tegk68 Posted September 13, 2007 Report Share Posted September 13, 2007 (edited) To me it's really simple Fee. Tell your neighbours politely, that their cats are coming into your garden and that you own dogs that could quite easily cause harm. Make it be known that there is nothing you can do about that fact and also that it's up to them to either accept this or do something to stop it. After that, worry about it no more, otherwise you'll never be able to relax in your own space. If the worst comes to the worst and one of them is sadly killed, it's not your fault and at least you will have given fair warning to the owners. As you so rightly point out, this is probably a 'nightmare' for your neighbours too. They will probably be able to do very little to top this I'm afraid. Hopefully as time goes on and the new cats settle they will work it out by themselves that your garden is not terribly 'welcoming'! If you can get to them at night when they're 'singing' then use a hose, and keep this up. With persistance they'll get the message. It's a pain having to do this but may well solve that problem. Helen, cat and dog owner and lover. Oh one last thing, if you do speak to the owners and they are nice etc, it may be worth throwing in your concerns over the wildlife aspect and suggesting a Bird Saver Cat Collar. These are an audio visual alarm cat collar which prevents cats from catching garden and bird life. They have worked very well for me in the past. Take a bottle of wine with you if you can stretch to it as a 'welcoming present', that should help Edited September 13, 2007 by tegk68 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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