cockergirl Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 However, if I felt , that it wasn't just about conditions (which can be improved), but about an 'attitude' towards animals which may be a trait, then I might do something in addition to going to the authorities. For example, if I adopted an animal that had not been given basic / appropriate treatment, was neglected, and my vet was also appalled at the condition, then regardless of physical conditions of buildings etc -(which might be pristine and 'perfect;)-, then I would probably shout it from the rooftops. Especially if I discovered I wasn't the only one who had had this experience I've been following what I think you are referring to here as well and I totally agree with what you've said here about attitude. 'Good intentions' are no excuse in a situation like this, they don't say that road to hell is paved with them for nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helly Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 I've been following what I think you are referring to here as well and I totally agree with what you've said here about attitude. 'Good intentions' are no excuse in a situation like this, they don't say that road to hell is paved with them for nothing. Do mistakes not also lead to learning and gathering more experience. you find me a dog owner on all these forums who knows everyything and has never made a mistake? I doubt you will find one. Everyday on every forum people post up usefull links many of which to information many of us didnt know. If we did know everything and didnt make mistakes these places could be very dull. We learn as we go along, we make mistakes and we figure out how not to make them next time. we hold our hands up and post 'well i never knew that' on many an occasion. and if we are doing usefull quotes for the occasion... I myself am made entirely of flaws, stitched together with good intentions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockergirl Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 Of course everyone makes mistakes but when people put themselves in a certain position (e.g. a kennel owner) there are elementary things which you expect them to know about and get right every time (e.g. health and hygiene). Some mistakes are much more serious than others and if they happen over again then can they still really be called mistakes? For someone in this position to neglect such basic things in my opinion cannot be excused as a 'mistake'. I too have flaws and good intentions and plenty of them but I also know my own limitations and in things which I make myself responsible for I damn well make sure I know and remember the basic difference in what is and isn't acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helly Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 I own a kennels and i dont know everything thank god. i still find links put up by other dog owners with information i wasnt always aware of or didnt know exactly. Its called learning. Very often new products come on the market that change my views and teach me more as i go along. If i had bought my kennels and not been open to new information and searched to improve my knowledge as id gone along i would probably make many mistakes but as times change then so must i change with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 If it were conditions of buildings etc then I would go to the authorities, and pester, pester, pester. However, if I felt , that it wasn't just about conditions (which can be improved), but about an 'attitude' towards animals which may be a trait, then I might do something in addition to going to the authorities. For example, if I adopted an animal that had not been given basic / appropriate treatment, was neglected, and my vet was also appalled at the condition, then regardless of physical conditions of buildings etc -(which might be pristine and 'perfect;)-, then I would probably shout it from the rooftops. Especially if I discovered I wasn't the only one who had had this experience Do mistakes not also lead to learning and gathering more experience. you find me a dog owner on all these forums who knows everything and has never made a mistake? I doubt you will find one. Everyday on every forum people post up usefull links many of which to information many of us didnt know. If we did know everything and didnt make mistakes these places could be very dull. We learn as we go along, we make mistakes and we figure out how not to make them next time. we hold our hands up and post 'well i never knew that' on many an occasion. and if we are doing usefull quotes for the occasion... I myself am made entirely of flaws, stitched together with good intentions. I think to be fair there is something in mistakes and learning - but that might be aplied to conditions as originally referred to rather than attitudes. Personally I don't think I would consider the second example of neglect or a failure to provide vetinerary treatment a mistake & certainly not something that I would expect anyone running a rescue to make. I would also like to see a statement somewhere from any rescue accused of such conduct - perhaps they say the claims against them are untrue, perhaps they say mistakes were made & lessons learned To be fair some volunteers attempted to reply on DP and in my opinion were never going to get a fair hearing. If somebody suddenly decided to "pre-moderate" my comments I'd tell them to **** *** & a post commenting on libel / defamation by someone who claimed to have an appropriate background to comment on that aspect resulted in the thread disappearing within minutes of it being posted. The comment had disappeared the following day when the thread reappeared so I would have my doubts as to whether the threads were entirely balanced. I can understand why the Rescue may not have replied in that environment. I can understand they may not have the funds to issue the threatened libel actions but what is the reason for them failing to refute these allegations here for example (as others have done on other matters)? The claims made are serious and extensive. They are either true or they are not. If they are then they are not in my opinion forgiveable matters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mop Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 Personally I don't think I would consider the second example of neglect or a failure to provide vetinerary treatment a mistake & certainly not something that I would expect anyone running a rescue to make. There are occasions when something is wrong with a dog and we don't realise how bad it is so we don't provide veternerary treatment as early as we should. I have known vets not to take something as seriously as they should because they didn't think it was as serious as it was so how can we as dog owners or kennel owners, get it always right? In my case when both myself and my vet didn't think the cut was serious my dog lost about 6 inches of his tail. It happens with our children as well, many parents are late contacting the doctor because they didn't think it was serious and one of my doctors has done the same thing with his children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockergirl Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 I own a kennels and i dont know everything thank god. i still find links put up by other dog owners with information i wasnt always aware of or didnt know exactly. Its called learning. Very often new products come on the market that change my views and teach me more as i go along. If i had bought my kennels and not been open to new information and searched to improve my knowledge as id gone along i would probably make many mistakes but as times change then so must i change with them. But surely basic hygiene and the necessity of providing basic veterinary treatment (let alone urgent veterinary treatment) was not something that you had to learn AFTER you had decided to open a kennels? Of course new products etc. come out but here I'm talking about simply keeping things clean and hygienic and dogs kept clean and looked after to an acceptable standard and provided with vet care - not things that should require a lot of 'new knowledge' for someone in this position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 This is NOT repeat NOT to turn into a thread about Mill Rescue full stop - we have not and we will not allow the allegations that have been made to be repeated and rehashed on this forum. Any further references overt or covert to MR will see this thread dissapear faster than one of the comets currently filling our night sky. May I also point out that when a case has the potential to end up in court then it is very unwise of anyone likely to be directly involved to be making public statements on the ruddy internet and they will have doubtless been advised not to do so by their solicitors. Now I'm going back to comet spotting - please feel free to join me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trallwm farm Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 OOps sorry I never thought about mentioning the xx place. I didnt mean to stir up anything over that. Just telling the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemstone Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 If I, as a member of the public, had a concern, I would approach the relevant authorities. However, if I had personally experienced something horrible and knew it to be a fact, I would report it to the authorities and share the information on a public forum to get support from my friends and to highlight facts about the rescue concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted August 15, 2007 Report Share Posted August 15, 2007 if you have a concern about an establishment regarding the conditions etc then what should you do? Post about it on an Internet forum or contact the RSPCA or local licencing authority etc? personally I would contact the relevant authority (and have done in the past). All the discussions in the world on the Internet will make no difference whatsoever if the powers that be are not informed. All the discussions in the world on the Internet will make no difference anyway and forums have no power. Manipulation of public opinion is so easy - too many people are firmly convinced that there is no smoke without fire. Present "evidence" - tell people what they are seeing/reading rather than leaving them to decide for themselves. Encourage those whose critical faculties are not well developed to jump on the bandwagon. Hint strongly that there is more to the subject under discussion than you are prepared to say. Silence the opposition to give a false impression that the overwhelming weight of public opinion is with you. And protect your key supporters from any suggestion that they are not squeaky clean. (From the little known "Spin for Dummies" by Josef Goebbels) Not commenting on any particular case. Just seen it happen so many times. So, imperfect though they may be, the proper channels should be the way to go. Pam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tegk68 Posted August 15, 2007 Report Share Posted August 15, 2007 (From the little known "Spin for Dummies" by Josef Goebbels) Sorry off topic ... what an interesting book that sounds. Might go have a looky now on Amazon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted August 15, 2007 Report Share Posted August 15, 2007 Sorry off topic ... what an interesting book that sounds. Might go have a looky now on Amazon I'm pretty sure it will be out of print. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 To be fair some volunteers attempted to reply on DP and in my opinion were never going to get a fair hearing. If somebody suddenly decided to "pre-moderate" my comments I'd tell them to **** *** & a post commenting on libel / defamation by someone who claimed to have an appropriate background to comment on that aspect resulted in the thread disappearing within minutes of it being posted. The comment had disappeared the following day when the thread reappeared so I would have my doubts as to whether the threads were entirely balanced. I consider myself a fairly harmless poster but I do have a strong sense of justice and if I think people need to engage their own critical faculties before deciding on something they know nothing about first hand, I will say so. I do like to think that I have a mind of my own. Maybe that makes me "dangerous" in some eyes? Ridiculous if it does. This has resulted in the past in my being banned from "the other place" without any explanation and reinstated apparently - again without any communication. Recently I was put on premod (since removed) simply for pointing out that a rescue board has no legal power to do anything (in response to a clamour for the board to "do something"). And now I have just tried to PM someone with a perfectly innocuous message to find that I am not allowed. And I have to say that I have never abused the PM system on any board. So yes, I believe your doubts concerning balance are completely justified (without commenting on the specifics of any rights or wrongs) . Heigh ho - I feel another ban coming on - eyes everywhere. Like it will bother me - Not! (I do know that my experience is far from unique.) Pam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheplover Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 I'm pretty sure it will be out of print. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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