Class

[Ian]

To play devils advocate slightly class appears to have been linked almost solely with money here..... from the skint "single mother" to the "rich gits". It's a factor no doubt but is this really entirely true or is class something more and even a transient thing? Though the old boys network is certainly alive & kicking and often works for children of the middle / upper classes I don't think for example that your Dads former profession entitles you to remain middle class if you yourself haven't reached or for whatever reason maintained that same status.

 

Examples

 

Margaret Thatcher was a grocers daughter - perhaps not a poor man but hardly upper class and yet through sheer hard work & determination she became the first female PM, mixing with the richest people in the world.

 

A couple of you say your not rich enough to be seen in certain places. I don't doubt that happens for a minute. But if you win the lottery on Wednesday you'll have more money than some of them - will your class have changed though - unless you choose it to do so?

 

The thug (cant recall his name) who won millions but made his neighbours life hell and has squandered most of it would probably have met the description of the underclass given here before hi win (though I'm not sure that was entirely accurate myself). Did his lottery win change that?

Edited May 21, 2007 by Ian

[GSDFan]

No love, you go in and act as common as you can without being loud enough to get thrown out. Take a couple of friends with you and enjoy watching the rich gits expressions

 

 

Isnt that derogatory and imposing "class"?

What class is common and the rich gits? Also suggesting she "act as common as" infers she would be acting below herself making her better than.........

 

I think most people can work out what is 'common' and what isn't. It is style of dress, manner of speech and behaviour, not necessarily linked to a particular class. Although you may not be able to, I can imagine the sort of people in the pub Cheryl mentions, they are most likely to be middle class, with far too much money and too few manners and too little tolerance.

 

I think - for all our good ideas and thoughts - classifying or collectively grouping people is impossible to escape. Also I think everyone who thinks class doesnt matter these days have their head buried in the sand (just my opinion)

 

I never classed myself as a "drain on society" Do you really know anyone like that? And if so, after such a dismal discription, would you call them friend?

 

I can think of a few families like that. Mum and Dad never worked, spend all their money on booze and sometimes drugs. They have loads of badly looked after kids and by the time their last child is born, the first is already pregnant.

[GSDFan]

To assume that there IS an underclass assumes that "one"is better than that underclass and therefore above it.

That is snobbery.

 

If one assumes there is a class system then unless you are at the bottom then there will be people in a class beneath you. How do you consider yourself then, Working Class, Middle Class, Upper Class ?

 

To assume that people in a pub need looking down on when you may have made likeminded friends by reaching out is again snobbery.

 

I don't think Cheryl was looking down on people, I think she was assuming they would look down on her.

[raiye]

Didnt put names in because I didnt want to draw attention to whom had said what - so please dont take it as so. It was more an example to say how giving class is done with out really knowing.

The bit I put in bold says you don't belong to the underclass either!!! I referred to people who have children, are kept by the state - BUT DON'T CARE, about their kids or much else in fact except themselves....thinks the world owes them a living etc.

I dont know anyone that doesnt care about something. Even if its only how they can get more drunk tonight than they did last night. Does chosing not to care make them lower? If I were rich and didnt care about anything? But wether I care about them or not, or whom I choose to blame doesnt change my level of class, though maybe my humanity. As I said "For all my good caring intentions I doubt very much it raises me any up the ladder of class." What is it that makes these people any lower class than any other? And if it does lower their class - shouldnt those of a higher class be those that are trying to help them rather than casting aspersions? If lack of caring lowers your class - then surely your lack of care for them lowers yours?

yes I have been in the interesting situation to have met a number of people like this. Consider them friends - uhm no.

You may have missed the chance to talk to some of the most intelligent / interesting / funny / experienced people on the planet. Some of my fathers funniest and deepest moments of philosophy came when he was most drunk. lol.

When a battered/starving/uncaring dog comes into rescue - we all rally round and wonder what horrible fate has befallen them to leave them with such lack of life and hope. Why would we not give people atleast the same wonder?

I have no working father to take a classification from. No wonderful cv of schools attended/ merits recieved. Classless??

Edited May 21, 2007 by raiye

[GSDFan]

To play devils advocate slightly class appears to have been linked almost solely with money here..... from the skint "single mother" to the "rich gits".

 

A couple of you say your not rich enough to be seen in certain places. I don't doubt that happens for a minute. But if you win the lottery on Wednesday you'll have more money than some of them - will your class have changed though - unless you choose it to do so?

 

The thug (cant recall his name) who won millions but made his neighbours life hell and has squandered most of it would probably have met the description of the underclass given here before hi win (though I'm not sure that was entirely accurate myself). Did his lottery win change that?

 

 

I don't think class is necessarily linked to wealth. I know a few thoroughly upper class but impoverished people. I also know some fairly wealthy working class people. As I've said before we're working class but we own our own business and when we are multi millionaires we will still be working class.

 

Lottery win by a working class person just makes them wealthy working class

 

The thug is Michael Carroll ( sp ), he lives not far from us. He was before his win as he is now, only now he has more money with which to buy houses and make more peoples lives miserable.

[murtle]

As the comments were mine, I thought I'd reply!

 

Didnt put names in because I didnt want to draw attention to whom had said what - so please dont take it as so. It was more an example to say how giving class is done with out really knowing.

 

Not necessarily true as this is a discussion on class and therefore makes people actively think about class. Something they may or may not do in a "normal" situation.

 

I dont know anyone that doesnt care about something. Even if its only how they can get more drunk tonight than they did last night. Does chosing not to care make them lower? If I were rich and didnt care about anything? But wether I care about them or not, or whom I choose to blame doesnt change my level of class, though maybe my humanity. As I said "For all my good caring intentions I doubt very much it raises me any up the ladder of class." What is it that makes these people any lower class than any other? And if it does lower their class - shouldnt those of a higher class be those that are trying to help them rather than casting aspersions? If lack of caring lowers your class - then surely your lack of care for them lowers yours?

 

It's not my definition of underclass...

 

You may have missed the chance to talk to some of the most intelligent / interesting / funny / experienced people on the planet. Some of my fathers funniest and deepest moments of philosophy came when he was most drunk. lol.

 

I don't recall saying I didn't speak to them I said I wan't friends with them.

 

When a battered/starving/uncaring dog comes into rescue - we all rally round and wonder what horrible fate has befallen them to leave them with such lack of life and hope. Why would we not give people at least the same wonder?

 

Who says we don't? I do, I am fascinated by people and what makes them, them.

 

I have no working father to take a classification from. No wonderful cv of schools attended/ merits recieved. Classless??

 

If you want to be

Edited May 21, 2007 by murtle

[murtle]

"Classless" - in the sense of upper/middle or lower, but classy I'm sure!!!

Edited May 22, 2007 by murtle

[phoenix21]

Social class refers to the hierarchical distinctions between individuals or groups in societies or cultures. Anthropologists, historians and sociologists identify class as universal, although what determines class varies widely from one society to another. Even within a society, different people or groups may have very different ideas about what makes one "high" or "low" in the hierarchy. The most basic class distinction between the two groups is between the powerful and the powerless. Social classes with more power usually subordinate classes with less power, while attempting to cement their own power positions in society. Social classes with a great deal of power are usually viewed as elites, at least within their own societies.

 

In the simplest societies, power is closely linked to the ability to assert one's status through physical strength; thus age, gender, and physical health are often common delineators of class in rudimentary tribes. However, spiritual charisma and religious vision can be at least as important. Also, because different livelihoods are so closely intertwined in simple societies, morality often ensures that the old, the young, the weak, and the sick maintain a relatively equal standard of living despite low class status.

 

As societies expand and become more complex, economic power replaces physical power as the defender of the class status quo, so that one's class is determined largely by:

 

occupation

education and qualifications

income, personal, household and per capita

wealth or net worth including the ownership of land,, property, means of production, ...

Those who can attain a position of power in a society will often adopt distinctive lifestyles to emphasize their prestige and to further rank themselves within the powerful class. Often the adoption of these stylistic traits are as important as one's wealth in determining class status, at least at the higher levels:

 

costume and grooming

manners and cultural refinement. For example, Bourdieu suggests a notion of high and low classes with a distinction between bourgeois tastes and sensitivities and the working class tastes and sensitivities.

political standing vis-à-vis the church, government, and/or social clubs, as well as the use of honorary titles

reputation of honor or disgrace

language, the distinction between elaborate code, which is seen as a criterion for "upper-class", and the restricted code, which is associated with "lower classes"

Finally, fluid notions such as race can have widely varying degrees of influence on class standing. Having characteristics of a particular ethnic group may improve one's class status in many societies. However, what is considered "racially superior" in one society can often be exactly the opposite in another. Also in situations where such factors are an issue, a minority ethnicity has often been hidden, or discreetly ignored if the person in question has otherwise attained the requirements to be of a higher class. Ethnicity is still often the single most overarching issue of class status in some societies (see the articles on apartheid, the Caste system in Africa, and the Japanese Burakumin ethnic minority for examples). However, a distinction should be made between causation and correlation when it comes to race and class. Some societies have a high correlation between particular classes and race, but this is not necessarily an indication that race is a factor in the determination of class.

 

thats the definition of class that i found - does it really matter about class nowadays? it seems very old fashioned and with the diversity of people - cultures, religions, races in our society i dont think defining people by class is particularly applicable to todays world. It was much more significant in the past and i think - as this thread seems to conclude - that its difficult to define your place within the class system and in the end - does it really matter? i dont care if people are working class, middle class, upper class or whatever - we are all the same in the end.

 

I couldnt really give a stuff what class im in

[Trallwm farm]

"Classless" - in the sense of upper/middle or lower, but classy I'm sure!!!

 

 

Ah but only the Queen is classless because she rules us all

Edited May 22, 2007 by Trallwm farm

[dognabbit]

So people who don't work are either rich or taking the piss? Cheers a bunch. Sorry but I've seen a couple of posts along these lines - if you're not working you're "idle", and all that. This whole thread's making me feel very uncomfortable and if I wasn't feeling as sensible it'd leave me feeling a bit shoved out and looked down on.

 

I'm the underclass, if we want to go down the lines this thread seems to be going (ie. pick a class, any class, see who's best, as it seems in *some* posts). As for people saying they're not of class, I think that's great and lovely, I would love to say the same. BUT when it comes to those who don't believe class is a problem, it's generally those who don't get looked down on that say that, because whether we class ourselves or not, someone else is classing us anyway, as is obvious in the above post.

 

Hey that comment wasn't meant to make you feel uncomfortable! I know many peoples' circumstances mean they are unable to work and society has an obligation to take care of those people!

 

SorryI included all of those who don't work together in the same sentence....... There are many who don't work and have no intention of working even though they could.

 

I've been on the dole three times.... I hold my hands up to signing on straight from leaving school and getting money for doing sweet FA...... my first giro of £6.95 was spent on a pair of shoes for my girlfriend, wooden platforms with studded leather tops, thankfully they had the aerodynamics of Canary Wharf so I managed to dodge them when they were thrown!! Phew!

 

I have been made redundant twice on those occasions I was grateful for any help I could get while I was out of work and found work as soon as I could!

 

Everyones entitled to financial help but some take the p**s!

 

 

;-)