mum24dog Posted May 16, 2007 Report Share Posted May 16, 2007 QUOTE(Sheplover @ May 11 2007, 09:26 PM) THAT is the sort of snobbery that seperates society. Why shouldnt someone bright be able to have anything they want in life without someone else telling them its out of thier class. Why shouldnt working class people have achievable dreams. By assuming working class means no hope you do working class a dis service Hear, hear. I was brought up as "working class" as they come, but always knew I could aspire to anything I put my mind to. I'm "middle class" now. My husband does have his own business but everytime we read of "average" figures for this and that, there we are. Pam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheplover Posted May 16, 2007 Report Share Posted May 16, 2007 (edited) QUOTE(Sheplover @ May 11 2007, 09:26 PM) ETA: Off topic, but just wondered if the tory voters own large estates (land, not car, lol) or businesses or have salaries over the six figure mark.....I seriously do not understand why any working class folk could vote tory - sorry. THAT is the sort of snobbery that seperates society. Why shouldnt someone bright be able to have anything they want in life without someone else telling them its out of thier class. Why shouldnt working class people have achievable dreams. By assuming working class means no hope you do working class a dis service Um, did you read my post properly just to clarify, I do not see how anyone 'working class' could vote for a party who does not have their values at heart! I am by NO MEANS a snob! Working class and proud love I was brought up as "working class" as they come, but always knew I could aspire to anything I put my mind to. No matter how well I am doing in monetary terms, I highly doubt that I would ever "aspire" to vote Tory!!! Edit: I am seething that my post could be taken so wrongly!!!! Edited May 16, 2007 by Sheplover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trallwm farm Posted May 16, 2007 Report Share Posted May 16, 2007 (edited) Um, did you read my post properly just to clarify, I do not see how anyone 'working class' could vote for a party who does not have their values at heart! why do you think that the Tories dont have thier values at heart. I am by NO MEANS a snob! Working class and proud love There you go again. Why assume that snobbery is a upper class thing. I was always taught that aristocracy have more in common with working class than with middle class Edit: I am seething that my post could be taken so wrongly!!!! It wasnt taken wrong it was just an opinion same as everyone else had one,from a different perspective Edited May 16, 2007 by Trallwm farm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheplover Posted May 16, 2007 Report Share Posted May 16, 2007 There I go again? Sorry, but I really think you are deliberately using antagonising language. You took my post not only out of context, but seemed to put two and two together and came up with 21 You stated: By assuming working class means no hope you do working class a dis service I have just said that I am proud to be working class, and I am definately not a 'no hoper' (I hope ), YOU assumed that is what I meant, what is it they say about assuming making an ass out of you or something along those lines? MY post was not talking about monetary aspirations, it was talking about MY opinion that one should vote for the party that best represents their needs/aspirations/opinions etc, which you have attempted to turn into a class debate. Perhaps it was my fault for going off topic, hence my pointing that out before I wrote my piece I was always taught to look passed class, yet I know my father worked in a factory all his life so that I and my brother could have a university education, hence ME feeling insulted that you would insinuate that I thought working class = no hoper, I do not appreciate you 'putting words in my mouth' thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elaine Posted May 16, 2007 Report Share Posted May 16, 2007 Cool it please, ladies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trallwm farm Posted May 16, 2007 Report Share Posted May 16, 2007 There I go again? Sorry, but I really think you are deliberately using antagonising language. I dont feel it was antagonistic language. Maybe you should look back at what you put to discover how it came accross. I have just said that I am proud to be working class, and I am definately not a 'no hoper' (I hope ), YOU assumed that is what I meant, what is it they say about assuming making an ass out of you or something along those lines? I understand that you are proud to be working class but not everyone is and you came accross as very against anyone who was of a different class to you. MY post was not talking about monetary aspirations, it was talking about MY opinion that one should vote for the party that best represents their needs/aspirations/opinions etc, which you have attempted to turn into a class debate. Perhaps it was my fault for going off topic, hence my pointing that out before I wrote my piece As far as I was concerned it wasnt about money either but basic respect for all classes.And still I believe that people vote Tory because it does represent peoples needs and thats MY opinion I was always taught to look passed class. Please try looking back at what you posted and seeing it from a different perspective. If I said anyone who wasnt born with a silver spoon can ONLY vote for Labour how would you feel ? Would you feel annoyed ? There are many people on here of all classes and I feel they deserve equal respect for thier views Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheplover Posted May 16, 2007 Report Share Posted May 16, 2007 I am sorry, but I feel that you have attempted to take what I have said and turn it completely on it's head. At no point did *I* mention class, it was *you* that assumed that is what I meant, again, *your* assumption which I believe is mistaken. At no point did I say that any class of person did not deserve respect for their views. I am at a loss as to why you are so intent on turning this into a class debate? I am off to bed, I hope to come back to this with a clear head tomorrow perhaps. I would advise you also to look back at what you have written Lesley and see where I have been upset at your (apparent) deliberate attempt to take my post somewhere it was not aimed at going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trallwm farm Posted May 16, 2007 Report Share Posted May 16, 2007 I am sorry, but I feel that you have attempted to take what I have said and turn it completely on it's head. At no point did *I* mention class, it was *you* that assumed that is what I meant, again, *your* assumption which I believe is mistaken. At no point did I say that any class of person did not deserve respect for their views. I am at a loss as to why you are so intent on turning this into a class debate? I am off to bed, I hope to come back to this with a clear head tomorrow perhaps. I would advise you also to look back at what you have written Lesley and see where I have been upset at your (apparent) deliberate attempt to take my post somewhere it was not aimed at going. That works both ways which is why I commented in the first place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSDFan Posted May 16, 2007 Report Share Posted May 16, 2007 Hear, hear.I was brought up as "working class" as they come, but always knew I could aspire to anything I put my mind to. I'm "middle class" now. My husband does have his own business but everytime we read of "average" figures for this and that, there we are. Pam I'd be interested to know why you feel you are now 'middle class' when you were born 'working class'. Personally I feel you stay in the class you are born in whatever happens to you through your life. I was born 'working class', we have our own business but we're still 'working class' and always will be. Even when I'm a multi millionaire with several businesses and homes in every county I'll still be 'working class' I hope by that time arrives there will be a party again who actually represents the 'working classes' because there isn't now. I am and always will be a socialist, I'm no longer a Labour voter though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyM Posted May 17, 2007 Report Share Posted May 17, 2007 Hear, hear.I was brought up as "working class" as they come, but always knew I could aspire to anything I put my mind to. I'm "middle class" now. My husband does have his own business but everytime we read of "average" figures for this and that, there we are. Pam I'm not sure why i find this kind of post quite sad - not aiming this at you personally pam, but it's something that i've heard before. i think it says to me (maybe wrongly) that some people are ashamed of who they are. i personally dislike the whole class thing - i'm not sure i know anyone comfortable with it though so i know i'm not alone. but i also believe that class is not as much about finanancial status as it is about work ethics and beliefs. my views are very "working class" but if i were to be labelled financially and on my current status, i would be the underclass (is that what they call it?). when we were looking into "underlass" work ethics, the labelling that came out from fellow students was of dole dossers, those that work the system and have no desire to work. he opposite of me, but financially that's where i'd be put. frankly i don't give a sh*t what class i am lol, i wouldn't vote tory if there was a gun to my head - they don't share my beliefs or ethics and no amount of grooming and picking a young potential to look hip will change their old fashioned and in some cases archaic views to me. i don't believe they have the wellbeing of anyone but the well-off at heart. sadly, i'm not sure who does have the country as a whole's best interests at heart, maybe it's naive to hope for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trallwm farm Posted May 17, 2007 Report Share Posted May 17, 2007 (edited) I'm not sure why i find this kind of post quite sad - not aiming this at you personally pam, but it's something that i've heard before. i think it says to me (maybe wrongly) that some people are ashamed of who they are. i personally dislike the whole class thing - i'm not sure i know anyone comfortable with it though so i know i'm not alone. but i also believe that class is not as much about finanancial status as it is about work ethics and beliefs. my views are very "working class" but if i were to be labelled financially and on my current status, i would be the underclass (is that what they call it?). when we were looking into "underlass" work ethics, the labelling that came out from fellow students was of dole dossers, those that work the system and have no desire to work. he opposite of me, but financially that's where i'd be put. frankly i don't give a sh*t what class i am lol, i wouldn't vote tory if there was a gun to my head - they don't share my beliefs or ethics and no amount of grooming and picking a young potential to look hip will change their old fashioned and in some cases archaic views to me. i don't believe they have the wellbeing of anyone but the well-off at heart. sadly, i'm not sure who does have the country as a whole's best interests at heart, maybe it's naive to hope for that. Ive come to the conclusion that all politicions are there to line thier own pockets. Apart from Trallwm Farm I work with a human rights groups and we get asked to help people of all classes and sectors. Since Labour have been in we are faced mainly with the devastation caused by officials in Labour orientated spheres.Im sure we would a symetrical view if it was Tories in but maybe slightly different problems. Just as all whove said you would not vote Tory,I on the opposte end would never vote Labour.1stly because of my upbringing and 2ndly because I see what happens when people do. However I would not for one minute assume anything without meeting people first and drawing my own conclusions.And I certainly would not cast aspertions on people just on assumption. This is a general reply not one aimed at you Kathy. I do feel that Tony Blair with his cool Brittania start created havoc with people jumping on the band wagon of greed. Every day we deal with people in terrible situations because no one has the sense to sort things out or people are in jobs of position who simply shouldnt be there. In our area the one person who does step up to the line does happen to be Tory and he has no chance of getting in at the moment. Labour are friendly but cant do a lot as its fellow Labourites in and they cannot rock the boat and Plaid Cymru give you almost a checklist to see if you are suitable for them and thier politics because they are more interested in feathering thier nests and getting control (in Wales) of the national assembly. That leaves us with independants who maybe naively think they can change the world but at least try. The things that have gone on in Welsh elections this year are hopefully going to result in a police investigation in one place becaue I am told officials have tried to save themselves by blocking anyone that could show problems. I have communications that involve Avon and Somerset and the MET to back this up. Ive had dealings with elections this year and I cannot begin to tell you of the self centred stuff that happens from all parties. I dont come from working class but I like to think I have friends from all classes and I dont like to see prejudice or ridicule aimed at ANY class. I must say and this is my own view,that often I get the impression that working class people think they are better than others. Thats obviously not all but some. So what makes them any better than someone who thinks they have climbd the ladder and dont have to deal with the hoy palloy ?? ANYBODY has the right to vote for who they want and to BE who they want. Otherwise we would have a state like China once was. Britain is bad enough with all the goings on right now that people dont hear about without battles on whos best working class versus upper class. Whe really cares ? Probably only those in a position to line thier pockets and thats both sides. Have a look at the not for the faint hearted thread further down. THATS what we should all be worried about because we hear of things like this every day.This has come out big time where as most things are kept quiet. Now who do we put in power that we can trust to stop Britain sliding any further down the toilet ? Is there anyone proving to us as a nation that they are honest ? Cameron is irritating me with his visits to a very bemused asian family that look like they had a ball (not) with Cameron and cameras using them to make racial points. Cameron needs to get to Wales and see real life. As for monitary status........I think thats something most of us have in common being broke and struggling. Edited May 17, 2007 by Trallwm farm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria Posted May 17, 2007 Report Share Posted May 17, 2007 I'd be interested to know why you feel you are now 'middle class' when you were born 'working class'. Personally I feel you stay in the class you are born in whatever happens to you through your life. I was born 'working class', we have our own business but we're still 'working class' and always will be. Even when I'm a multi millionaire with several businesses and homes in every county I'll still be 'working class' I hope by that time arrives there will be a party again who actually represents the 'working classes' because there isn't now. I am and always will be a socialist, I'm no longer a Labour voter though. Completely agree with you. I have no class I thank my parents (who would definitely have been classified as working class ) for bringing us up with strong values and for not judging people according to their 'status' - even though the likes of us were often 'looked down on'. We were encouraged to be caring and considerate of others, and help out those who needed it. For example, the road we lived in was mainly private houses, then there was an alleyway, and after that our council house and several other council houses. For the silver jubilee a street party was suggested, but many wanted to stop the invites at the alley - ie miss out all the council house tenants. So we had to organise our own. My parents still dealt pleasantly with those neighbours, even though they had made it clear they thought we weren't good enough to mix with. We were taught never to be ashamed of where we came from / lived, and I don't understand people who aspire to call themselves a different class.As it turned out several of these households did come and join our party, and had a great time, and were then ostracised by their neighbours who wanted us excluded. If pushed to define myself I would still say working class ,- even though we have may have achieved far more financial success than our parents could have dreamed of, we are products of the fantastic upbringing and values they gave us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheplover Posted May 17, 2007 Report Share Posted May 17, 2007 I dont come from working class but I like to think I have friends from all classes and I dont like to see prejudice or ridicule aimed at ANY class. I must say and this is my own view,that often I get the impression that working class people think they are better than others. Thats obviously not all but some. ANYBODY has the right to vote for who they want and to BE who they want. Otherwise we would have a state like China once was. Britain is bad enough with all the goings on right now that people dont hear about without battles on whos best working class versus upper class. Whe really cares ? As for monitary status........I think thats something most of us have in common being broke and struggling. Why do you think that working class people think that they are better than others? Does that imply that when you meet people you immediately judge their class and then their views are attributed to them being 'arrogant'? I don't understand people who aspire to call themselves a different class. Me neither. Like Lesley said, there are more important things in life than as to what class you aspire to be in. I remeber a discussion instigated by a friend when we were on a field trip a few weeks ago, maybe it was the wine talking, but she was so adamant in her insistance that her parents were working class BUT had bought her and her siblings up to be mddle class, she got quite stroppy in asserting that she was middle class whereas the rest of us all said we were working class, and didn't really care tbh. People like that make my head Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murtle Posted May 17, 2007 Report Share Posted May 17, 2007 as a single woman with no kids and my own small business this government has hit me time and time again with their tax and NI increases so i would be more than happy to see labour out for good. WSS - although I see the discussion has moved on to class....I was bottom class for maths and french if that helps x x x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trallwm farm Posted May 17, 2007 Report Share Posted May 17, 2007 WSS - although I see the discussion has moved on to class....I was bottom class for maths and french if that helps x x x Me too !! I hated both Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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