Wendbert Posted November 7, 2006 Report Share Posted November 7, 2006 I wanted my dog to have as great a life as possible. She will never be perfect and I accept that, but I wanted her to be able to run around and play with other dogs, at least some of the time. I've spent a great deal of time and money trying to enable that to happen. But has that happened? Sorry, I really don't mean to appear to be criticising, because I'm not, but from what you've said, you can't let Purdie offlead. I'm aware that Dalmations have huge amounts of energy and that Purdie wouldn't be worn out after being walked, but I really do think she is missing out from not having the different stimulus and physical exercise from being taken out. I appreciate that you have spent a lot of time and money going to Angela's workshops, but to be honest, if I'd have gone to someone 15 months ago and still couldn't take my dog out, I'd be wondering what the point was. Maybe I am being simplistic, but from what I'm reading it seems to come down to two choices - take the plunge and walk Purdie, with muzzle/harness whatever it takes or accept that she's not going to go out on a walk again and put up with an unhappy, whiney whinging dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melp Posted November 7, 2006 Report Share Posted November 7, 2006 Nat, I don't know who Angela Stockdale is or who G is but if after this length of time you are still unable or unwilling to walk your dog the you seriously need to consider your options. You said you've not been able to attend many workshops lately and that this Angela Stockdale doesn't remember what she told you. I'm sorry and this is no offence to her, but I'd be extremely worried if someone told me to keep my dogs in for 15 months then couldn't recall why they'd said it. Purdie isn't aggressive with people is she? so to say she'd be unrehomable is nonsense. There are homes out there who can keep dogs away from other dogs and have the time and finances available to do whatever is necessary for their animals. I'd hate to think she's been responsible for the deaths of any dogs by telling people they're the worst she's ever seen or are unhomeable. You say you are much more chilled now but Purdie clearly isn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tegk68 Posted November 7, 2006 Report Share Posted November 7, 2006 (edited) In my opinion, you are only chilled because you are not facing up to your fears and challenges regarding Purdie! That might be fine for you but is it for Purdie?..... I don't like half measures in life. I think it often does more harm than good. If I were you, this is what I would do: 1. take a deep breath and face up to the fact that I now have an issue taking my dog out on a walk. That I am scared of what may or may not be the consequences. That my insecurites and fear are stopping me from taking Purdie for a walk. That I may be half, if not more, of the problem. 2. I would then accept Purdies limitations, which are that she may never possibly be able to run freely amongst other dogs, that I cannot trust her 100% with another dog, ever, that she will be an onlead dog. 3. Now I would ask myself how can I make the best of of this situation and importantly, what is right for Purdie. 4. Knowing that walks are NOT just about letting the dog loon about and have a good run and that they are IMPORTANTLY about letting the dog get much needed stimulus and variety in the day through his/her nose and sights and sounds - I'm afraid much more than your house will ever provide. I would decide to start walking Purdie again. 5. I would then ask how I can keep a lid on the stress, for me as much as Purdie. I would muzzle her, get a good harness and walk at quieter times of the day. Even if that meant getting up at 5am etc etc. I would make myself remain calm when we come across other dogs, be confident and walk past happily, remembering that Purdie loves me and is very sensitive to my moods. 6. Once that was established. I would take another deep breath, get myself relaxed and set off with Purdie and as much as I'm concentrating on her I would do likewise with myself, ensuring I remained relaxed. I would also look round my environment and enjoy the ever changing sights and sounds. 7. Little onlead exercises whilst I'm out walking would be good too. Things like sit and stay and working on heal work etc in intervals. I'd repeat these at home possibly too. 8. At all times I would remember to enjoy just being out on a walk with Purdie. Edited November 7, 2006 by tegk68 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
safneo Posted November 7, 2006 Report Share Posted November 7, 2006 (edited) Nat, I don't know who Angela Stockdale is or who G is but if after this length of time you are still unable or unwilling to walk your dog the you seriously need to consider your options. You said you've not been able to attend many workshops lately and that this Angela Stockdale doesn't remember what she told you. I'm sorry and this is no offence to her, but I'd be extremely worried if someone told me to keep my dogs in for 15 months then couldn't recall why they'd said it. Mel I think you may have misunderstood this. Ang does remember why she said it. Just not remember if Nat was taking Miss P out as she is unable to take her to group much these days. Also, Nat was told that she can take Purdie out off lead, but thats down to finding a suitable secure venue, which Ang won't know about (whether she has or not) until Nat sees or speaks to her again. You say you are much more chilled now but Purdie clearly isn't Since I've known Purdie so has calmed down a lot! Its only recently that Nat thinks she seems to be getting a bit bored. She still seems fine when I see her. Not climbing the walls like I have seen dogs do previously. Purdie might not be in her perfect home but how many dogs are? So many of us work full-time and still leave our dogs at home. Though as Nat says, they generally get used to the routine and sleep whether we are there or not during the day. I think the point everyone is missing here is that Nathalie is trying to do something about it but is unsure whether its a good idea to take her out and risk undoing the improvement that Purdie has made so far. She has a very short attention span, even with new exciting people. She loves it when I go round but once she susses that she isnt getting any treats she buggers off! I know that getting her into a toy is a good idea but again difficult again when she is muzzled. There is no way that Nat would take her out unmuzzled. That would be very irresponsible knowing the damage she could/would do to another dog. But then there is the risk of another dog attacking her. So the only thing is for one of us to win the lottery and buy a big field! Someone mentioned earlier about checking the land registry to find out who owns the local land to see if we can rent. Can anyone tell us how to that? That maybe an option that we can look into. Edited to say apologies for replying in your quote mel, I can't do the multiple quotey thing from the same quote! Edited November 7, 2006 by safneo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wendbert Posted November 7, 2006 Report Share Posted November 7, 2006 I think the point everyone is missing here is that Nathalie is trying to do something about it but is unsure whether its a good idea to take her out and risk undoing the improvement that Purdie has made so far. But Nat will never find out unless she tries. I can see the benefit of having a field to yourselves, but in the long run its still not resolving the issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tegk68 Posted November 7, 2006 Report Share Posted November 7, 2006 (edited) Oo just one more thing, or maybe two : Don't put you and Purdie on a stressful journay in an ill car to go for a walk. Just open your front door and off you go. Trust me the quality of the sniffs will not be better anywhere else. And secondly Your title of your thread is I want to start walking Purdie again. Just do it Nat. Do it. And if you read this tonight, start tomorrow Edited November 7, 2006 by tegk68 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gooster Posted November 7, 2006 Report Share Posted November 7, 2006 I agree with everything Helen said, she just put it much better than I could Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlmckay Posted November 7, 2006 Report Share Posted November 7, 2006 Well Nats, my hat is off to you for persisting for so long! Seriously, I think you're the most amazing, committed owner I've heard of in a looooong time! Now, as others have mentioned, it would appear AS's take on fixing her dog aggression isn't working (after 15 months, it truly can't be). It's made improvements, but hasn't solved the problem as she still can't go out. I was thinking about you and Purdie's situation and I wondered if you'd heard of Cesar Millan? He's an American trainer and takes on a lot of rescued pitbulls and watnot and has a pack of around 30 that live together harmoniously. His methods are probably not going to be popular in the UK... However, his take on this would be to "flood" Purdie with other dogs, not allowing her to react by keeping a short lead and a muzzle on her. It's a seriously intense thing to do to a dog, but he's of the "sink or swim" school of teaching - it's not for everyone. I saw him do this on TV with a Rottie and it was actually fine after the first 10 minutes of all the other dogs (he took this rottie into his pack) sniffing to say hello. The rottie did, however, take a dislike to a GSD and CM made sure that this GSD was always around the rottie. So the poor rottie had to put up with this GSD and just "get over it". Now, this method is extremely intense. However, it can have amazing results. I suggest you read up on the internet about Mr Milan because not everyone likes him, however, the results on his TV show have been quite phenomonal. National Geographic website - Cesar Millan page Now, let's just be clear before I get flamed... this is the complete opposite of what Nats been doing with Angela Stockdale. However, I believe that in order to be good trainers for our dogs, it is worthwhile knowing as much as we can about all the methods out there in order to pick the correct one for our dog. I don't agree with everything Cesar Millan has to say, but I do think some dogs get a good result with his methods. It's down to each individual dog owner to understand their dog and understanding all the methods, to pick the correct one that's right for that dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bebe Posted November 7, 2006 Report Share Posted November 7, 2006 Ceasar Milan is at the moment being sued because he caused the death of a young dog His methods are barbaric, I wouldnt think for one second Nat would entertain following any of that mans methods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
safneo Posted November 7, 2006 Report Share Posted November 7, 2006 Ang, does do the flooding thing though. But its offlead so that the dog has a choice in how to behave. It soon makes them appreciate mum or dad a lot more. A dog will always behave a lot worse on lead than off as they don't have the 'flight' option. This may increase the chance of the 'fight' reaction. If a dog learns off lead that they have the choice of fight or flight, they will learn which is the easier option Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlmckay Posted November 7, 2006 Report Share Posted November 7, 2006 (edited) Ceasar Milan is at the moment being sued because he caused the death of a young dog Really? Hadn't heard that... got a link? The only thing I can find referencing that is someone's blog... which mentions he used a choke chain and a treadmill... also remember that the US is the land of lawsuit... Would be interested to read up on it though, if you've got the info His methods are barbaric I wouldn't say barbaric, but they are pretty tough. Like I said, I don't agree with everything he does, but it's always good to know what other methods are out there. Pick and mix training if you like - A little Angela Stockdale, a little Cesar Milan, a little common sense? Ang, does do the flooding thing though. But its offlead so that the dog has a choice in how to behave. It soon makes them appreciate mum or dad a lot more. A dog will always behave a lot worse on lead than off as they don't have the 'flight' option. This may increase the chance of the 'fight' reaction. If a dog learns off lead that they have the choice of fight or flight, they will learn which is the easier option Ah yes, of course. You mentioned that earlier - with the stooge dogs... such a shame that Nat can't get to these sessions more often then... Nat, a lot of this is down to your anxiety too you know Purdie will definitely be picking up on it and feeling that if you are worried, she should be worried too. Hey, I remembered you mentioned she enjoys her tug toy - great - play with this, end the game before she is bored and lets go... this will build up and you can use this as her "high value" reward. If it gets soooo exciting for her, it may (one day) outdo her attention on other dogs... Edited November 7, 2006 by dlmckay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bebe Posted November 7, 2006 Report Share Posted November 7, 2006 Ceaser Milan Thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlmckay Posted November 8, 2006 Report Share Posted November 8, 2006 (edited) Thanks for that bebe - none of the links work anymore though... I didn't think he'd be popular in the UK... However, it doesn't hurt to look at all the training methods and mix and match bits around to suit yourself and your dog. Knowledge is power and all that! I do like Cesar's theory that naughty dogs are bored and need exercise. I do this in my loose lead lessons - 15 minutes of run around time prior to class so that the dog's silly hyper state has come down sufficiently to be able to train them. I also like his interrupter method (which he uses with a choke chain, but could be done with training discs or a shaker can) for barking dogs, but I would not recommend anyone start to do it without first knowing exactly what to do because that's all about timing - get the timing wrong and you needn't bother But this isn't about CM, so natspants, I apologise for detracting from your thread... has any of our conversation thrown up anything helpful? Edited November 8, 2006 by dlmckay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brierley Posted November 8, 2006 Report Share Posted November 8, 2006 Ceasar Milan is at the moment being sued because he caused the death of a young dog I believe it was one of his associates Bebe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natpants Posted November 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2006 (edited) Hello. Thanks for the replies. Very quickly before I go to work. Yes I am nervous about taking Purdie out, purely because we've worked so hard and she's come so far and I don't want to undo the progress. She's come on amazingly but would any of us trust a dog that is aggressive 100%? That would be foolish. She is not stressed, let me make that PERFECTLY clear. She doesn't bark, chew, pant, or any of the other things that would suggest she is stressed, she is more bored than usual and therefore more attention-seeking, so I have taken measures to try to understand that and work on it. Grounding her has calmed her and the workshops have meant that I have a dog who can be off-lead with aggressive dogs. Neo in the workshops winds her up and she pretty much ignores it - we are talking about 2 problem dogs who once upon a time would have been fighting. This is the only thing that has ever worked and I have spent a great deal of time and money sorting her out. So I do not want to undo that. The sort of perfect home for Purdie would be very very rare, as we are not just talking about the lead work and dog aggression, yes she is wonderful with people, there are some reasons why I love her afterall, but she is enormously hard work around the house too. Who else has 2.5/3 years experience understanding her? She is very complicated. Fortunately for Purdie that is a moot point. She is NOT being rehomed and I do not doubt the decisions I have made with regard to Ange's workshops. I could simply have continued walking her but that did not solve the problem. Many behaviourists believe that a dog who dislikes other dogs is unhappy and stressed, so simply not allowing them to come into contact with other dogs doesn't change anything - you still have a dog who hates other dogs and is still unhappy. Easy for you but not for the dog. I wanted to change that for Purdie. I know now I can allow Purdie to run around with other dogs under controlled circumstances (i.e. muzzled) and that is a massive leap forward. She will NEVER be perfect! She is however much calmer in general and immensely improved with other dogs. Sadly my life isn't perfect, for that I make no apologies. Who can say theirs is or guarantee their circumstances won't change? Actually this thread HAS done wonders for my confidence! It's made me realise just how proud I am of my progress with Purdie and how I really don't give a monkey's if people think what I've done so far is right or not. Purdie is a calmer, happy, constantly wagging girl and I'm really proud of the changes I've brought about in her. I've got buckley's chance of everyone agreeing with everything I do so I will continue to question and take on board others' comments, especially of those behaviourists and experienced trainers, and make a judgement based accordingly. I am an intelligent and well-informed owner and will continue to do the right thing, as I see it. Happily this is not the "should I rehome Purdie" thread but the "how can I CONTINUE to IMPROVE Purdie's life" thread. Thanks everyone for all your replies Edited November 8, 2006 by Natpants Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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