Glucosamine And Chondroitin For Dogs - Any Research?

[Karen]

There is coverage on the news this morning of a report saying that glucosamine and chondroitin supplements for humans are ineffective for joint pain.

 

There is some information here

 

Are there any published studies on the effectiveness of similar supplements for dogs? Rosie takes these supplements and there seems to be a huge number of similar tablets/capsules/liquids available via vets and other places.

[dibs]

I have recommended and used these supplements on mine and customers dogs for years. A close friend has a Japanese Akita who had a stifle injury aged about 6. He went on these for the rest of his life. Apart from occcasional stiffness as he aged he was fine. A couple of Xmases ago she was taken suddenly to hospital and spent 4 days in there. A neighbour fed the dog but didn't know about supplements and he didn't have them. When my friend came out of hospital,he couldn't get up unaided and cried when he did. She range me in tears and I suggested pain relief for the night and back on his supplements. Within 36 hours he was moving normally again.

I could quote a whole load of other cases but this makes the point. I do believe they help.

[Jazz]

lissie was senile, just gazing into space.since being on glucosomine, human ones, shes lucid and a sod lol

[Barty's Mum]

I, too, heard this on the news this morning, but what you have to ask is what was the premise for the research in the first place - ie the question they were seeking to answer and who was paying for the research. I have been in marketing all my life and can make research say just about anything I want it to.

 

Any other published studies you will find will be funded by one faction or another. My advice to you is take advice from people who have anecdotal evidence that shows one brand or other or supplement works and then try it.

 

Anne

[cycas]

There are some studies showing effectiveness in rabbits :

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....88/?tool=pubmed

http://ajpheart.phys...hort/297/1/H268

 

But this article reckons nothing very conclusive :

 

http://skeptvet.com/...ne-chondroitin/

 

I suspect part of the problem with producing valid studies is that if the stuff is absorbed and usable via the gut, then diet will make a big difference to whether supplements will help or not (I'd guess that animals that eat a lot of cartilage anyway would not benefit as they'd be getting the same thing in a different way!) and probably the people in the study are all eating different stuff...

 

Mine take supplements, on the grounds that it is not that expensive and is unlikely to do them any harm but I am not sure if it is effective or not. I don't see how one can really draw conclusions from the behaviour of only a few animals that are not blind tested against placebo.

 

I can switch them on and off it, but it's always possible that changes in their fitness that I see are a false correlation. After all, their fitness varies quite a bit over time when they are taking the supplements, so it's possible that if I take them off, and they seem tireder and creakier, they might simply be that way anyway. Or if I put them on it and they perk up, maybe they are enjoying better weather or are pleased I took them to a new place for a walk. This is why it's so important to do very large scale tests on medication that might actually do harm.

 

You only need that sort of coincidence once or twice before people start imputing magical effects to all kinds of stuff.

Edited September 17, 2010 by cycas

[merledogs]

I used Synflex for 5 and a half years on Milly for her severe HD and it worked absolute wonders, where everything else offered by the vet did nothing. I have no doubt if she were still with me, she'd still be running round like a loon.

 

I have also used it on Max, who has lumbo sacral disease and who couldn't run for more than a few steps before I put him on it. I tried him on it and he can now run for much longer - if I stand in the middle of his favourite field, he will run and run in circles for ages around me (he's blind so he can't run in straight lines or he'd eventually bump into something). It really has given him a new lease of life

 

I've known people who have taken it with great results as well, so I would question the research, who funded it and what their motives were.

Edited September 17, 2010 by merledogs

[celeste]

It's been known for a while that Glucosamine has a limited effect in people, whether or not it works in dogs though hasn't been shown yet as far as I'm aware, this is interesting though The Lay Scientist . I've used a few different joint supplements now, some have been great ( but not palatable ) some have had little effect, which has led me to believe that it's down to the individual dog and what works for them, as some of the ones I've tried which haven't worked, have had good results in other dogs. Unfortunately it's very difficult to find truly independent research, everyone seems to have something to sell if you look hard enough.

[Karen]

I've always believed that you can do anything with statistics and rich drug companies can pay for whatever results they like.

 

I suspect that I fall into the same category as most pet owners, once you start giving a supplement it's difficult to stop as it might be helping even if its difficult to quantify.

 

I've also started wondering if there are differences in what the glucosamine is manufactured from and what quality controls there are in many processes.

 

Thanks for the interesting links, I'll have a read when I've finished working.

[Ian]

Glucosmaine & chrondroitin are naturall found in the body & in my opinion probably do have uses & benefits. You can't however expect to "fix a broken leg with a sticking plaster", ie they will have limitations like anything.

 

There are many people who say it does help them & their pets. Whether one product is any better than another is also a matter of opinions. When I looked at this previously I remained to be convinced that canine / equine was necessarily better than human intended products. Have a look at

Glucosamine information centre http://www.a1msm.co.uk/glucosamine.htm

 

 

There are comparison of / comments on some products here http://www.arthritis-cats-dogs.com/glucosamine-for-pets/

 

 

For those not in there there’s

 

 

Cortaflex - claims to contain smaller (hence better) molecules of glucosamine & chrondroitin plus hyaluronic acid though I could see no independent scientific evidence to support claims of it having proved better http://www.cortaflex.co.uk/catdogproducts.html

 

 

 

Synflex American website http://www.synflexamerica.com/ingredients.php - Does have other ingredients but unlike synflex tablets no nsaids as far as I can see.

 

 

Cosequin said to be one of the most popular choices amongst vets – but still appears to largely be glucosamine & chrondroitin to me

 

http://www.nutrecare.co.uk/prod5.asp?prod_id=1433&id=154&grpid=1433&msg=&offset=#prod_anchor

 

 

Synoquin claimed to be recommended by vets to help the natural repair process

 

http://www.nutrecare.co.uk/prod5.asp?prod_id=1453&id=154&grpid=1453&msg=&offset=#prod_anchor

 

 

Stride http://www.nutrecare.co.uk/prod6.asp?prod_id=3225&id=115&sub_cat=487&grpid=3225&msg=&offset=#prod_anchor

 

 

Arthrotabs http://www.nutrecare.co.uk/prod6.asp?prod_id=1412&id=115&sub_cat=487&grpid=1412&msg=&offset=#prod_anchor

 

 

ArthriAid sounds like a high glucosamine content quoted at 500ml as it is here but it’s given in 20ml doses. It’s presumably therefore more like 240mg of glucosamine you’re giving in a dose

 

http://www.nutrecare.co.uk/prod6.asp?prod_id=1413&id=115&sub_cat=487&grpid=1413&msg=&offset=#prod_anchor

 

 

Flexadin http://www.nutrecare.co.uk/prod6.asp?prod_id=3222&id=115&sub_cat=487&grpid=3222&msg=&offset=#prod_anchor

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Seraquin http://www.seraquin.co.uk/ Limited info on exactly what’s in this

 

 

 

Seven Seas Joint care website http://www.jointcare.com/

 

Choose product range & then click on products for ingredient breakdowns. Seven Seas state

 

 

 

• “Eat a balanced diet. Some people claim that certain foods are either good or bad for their joints. There is no hard evidence to support any particular foods or any particular diet regime for joint health apart from eating foods high in the omega-3 fatty acids, like oily fish. A healthy diet includes plenty of fruit, vegetables and grains and only moderate amounts of fatty and sugary foods
• Consider taking a supplement to safeguard the diet. Evidence links joint health with three naturally-occurring ingredients, glucosamine, chondroitin and the long-chain omega-3 fatty acids EPA and DHA (eicosapentaenoic acid and docosahexaenoic acid) found in cod liver oil and fish oil “

 

 

Pedigree Joint Care + http://www.bringbackthebounce.co.uk/jointcare/bbtb/

 

I seem to recall looking at a pack & thinking glucosamine content etc was quite low but Pedigree claim that “72% of dogs fed Pedigree Joint Care+ daily experience a higher level of mobility within 6 weeks, reduced stiffness, and greater range of motion”

 

 

 

Joint Aid for Dogs from GWF nutrition

 

http://www.jointaidfordogs.co.uk/prod_jointaid_dog/index.htm

 

 

Though at 2% each it appears to have a very low % of glucosamine & chrondrotin to me

 

 

[owl]

Joint Aid did absolutely 0 for Polly, but Cortaflex got her moving again. She can now do a couple of miles if we have a rest half way, where a year ago she would be struggling after half a mile. I recommended it to a dog walking pal for his 14 yr old collie x and she has shown distinct improvement after 10 days.

 

There is a major problem with double blind trials, in that you can never get identical people or animals on each side. There are always going to be variables, maybe unknown ones. And the term "placebo effect" is often used to explain things, but no one seems to be taking a closer look at what it is and how it works. If a sick person has improved through believing they were going to, then that to me is something to be explored, not dismissed as an unimportant spinoff from medical research.

 

I have my doubts about the impartiality of drugs trials for the reasons given by Barty's Mum, and because of what a senior diabetologist told me of his experiences working for Novo Nordisk, when his concerns about a certain type of insulin were completely dismissed and all his evidence from trials was binned. People fell into coma as a result and one or two lives were lost. Whoever pays the piper calls the tune.

[gremlin22]

i think every animal and person responds differently. Scientific papers need repeatable results in controlled conditions to consider things as concrete evidence. While it may not have worked for the majority of humans in the test, it does appear to work in a lot of humans in general, or they certainly believe it does. i think the same goes for animals, try it, if you see an improvement in your pet keep it up, if it makes no odds try something else.

 

my dog has these

http://www.vetvits.co.uk/dog-supplements/flexi-joints-for-dogs/productdetail-p15875-c1786997.aspx

 

she doesn't have athritis but she's 8 years old and does agility and seems to get bouncier all the time.

Edited September 17, 2010 by gremlin22

[cycas]

There is a major problem with double blind trials, in that you can never get identical people or animals on each side. There are always going to be variables, maybe unknown ones. And the term "placebo effect" is often used to explain things, but no one seems to be taking a closer look at what it is and how it works. If a sick person has improved through believing they were going to, then that to me is something to be explored, not dismissed as an unimportant spinoff from medical research.

 

There's is some fascinating information on just how amazingly effective the placebo effect can be: I agree that people dismiss it as 'just a placebo' when in fact it seems like somehow the placebo is allowing the body to perform some really amazing feats of healing and produce huge imprevements in wellbeing.

 

People argue that certain treatments must operate outside the placebo effect because it's impossible for animals to understand the concept of medical treatment to the extent that they would see any improvement. I think this greatly underrates the ability of animals to understand concepts and pick up information from their human family. I suspect mind and body is a lot more entwined than we currently understand it to be...

 

Ben Goldacre did a radio two-parter about placebos a couple of years back which looks at a lot of the research : http://www.badscience.net/2008/08/my-placebo-programme-on-bbc-radio-4/ and http://www.badscience.net/2008/08/part-two-of-my-radio-4-show-on-the-placebo-effect/ (The MP3 links still work, not sure about the BBC play again ones).

[gremlin22]

There's is some fascinating information on just how amazingly effective the placebo effect can be: I agree that people dismiss it as 'just a placebo' when in fact it seems like somehow the placebo is allowing the body to perform some really amazing feats of healing and produce huge imprevements in wellbeing.

 

People argue that certain treatments must operate outside the placebo effect because it's impossible for animals to understand the concept of medical treatment to the extent that they would see any improvement. I think this greatly underrates the ability of animals to understand concepts and pick up information from their human family. I suspect mind and body is a lot more entwined than we currently understand it to be...

 

Ben Goldacre did a radio two-parter about placebos a couple of years back which looks at a lot of the research : http://www.badscience.net/2008/08/my-placebo-programme-on-bbc-radio-4/ and http://www.badscience.net/2008/08/part-two-of-my-radio-4-show-on-the-placebo-effect/ (The MP3 links still work, not sure about the BBC play again ones).

 

oo the badscience stuff is great!