Racism Question.

[blackmagic]

British Nationality

The British Nationality Act 1981 came into force on 1 January 1983. It defines who is British by birth and how people may become British through naturalisation or registration.

http://www.yourrights.org.uk/yourrights/ri...ationality.html

 

 

 

Birth in the UK

 

People who were born in the UK before 1983 were automatically British citizens by birth. The only exception to this was children whose parents were working here as diplomats at the time they were born.

 

Anybody born here after 1 January 1983 is automatically British if at the time of the birth:

 

* One of their parents was a British citizen.

* One of their parents was allowed to stay here permanently.

 

For children born outside of marriage, it remains the case that British nationality can only be passed through the mother. Parliament has passed a law that overturns this - the Nationality Immigration and Asylum Act 2002 allows nationality to be inherited from the father, but as of 2006 this provision is still not in force.

 

Where neither parent is British at the time of the child’s birth, but they later become settled, they can then apply for their child to naturalise.

[kats n greys]

I have dual nationality.

 

Born in England (Britain) to a British mother, but my father is American so I also have an American passport

[jacqui d]

Im English/British, parents are both from Eire, hubs is black British born of Jamaican parents, Im pround of who i am and where im from.

 

Im Jacqui, im a mum, a wife, a daughter, sister, niece, friend, im from my parents, the rest is (imo) irrelevant

 

On the original subject, i think its a shame the little felow mentioned, felt the need to identify his friend by anything other than his name.

[zico's mum]

<<<snipped>>> hubs is black British born of Jamaican parents, <<<>>On the original subject, i think its a shame the little felow mentioned, felt the need to identify his friend by anything other than his name.

 

Jacqui then why did you need to describe your husband as black British? Why was it necessary to mention his skin colour at all? Just curious as it seems to contradict your last statement.

[jacqui d]

I wasnt attempting to contradict myself, just show that my family is made of many nations/colours, yet we still see each other as individuals by name not colour or race, im not refered to as the white woman with irish parents, black husband and mixed race kids, so why refer to anyone else by their skin colour or (possible) country of origin rather than just their name?

[murtle]

I get described as the short one with long dark hair. In countries I've been where white isn't the *norm* I've been referred to as the white one. It's an easy way to distinguish me from others. It would seem strange to be blind to the different colours of people in the world and a sad loss IMO. The rich diversity is what makes people different and therefore interesting. It could be the manic curly hair, the brilliant flash of red hair, the glasses that are needed or the clothes that someone is wearing. Why shouldn't we use the full descriptions of people to define them. It doesn't have to be used in a rascit (why can't I spell that word) manner, but in a precise honest way.

 

When I worked in Mauritius, they would define people by religion i.e. Tamil or Catholic usually by colour and facial features. It seemed strange to me, but there are no native Mauritians, and in fact the religion invariably gave away their ancestry and where they came from. It made for a very interesting culturally diverse place to be. As a white person I should have been catholic and it confused them when I didn't know the Catholic religious days!!

[scotslass]

I get described as the short one with long dark hair. In countries I've been where white isn't the *norm* I've been referred to as the white one. It's an easy way to distinguish me from others.

 

But not by friends who already know your name, surely? That's the point of this thread.

 

My nephew might well be described as "the boy with brown skin" by a child who'd just seen him for the first time, but that doesn't make it ok to call him a "Paki". And I wouldn't expect his usual playmates to start calling him a Paki, instead of using his name...why on earth would they do that?

 

We can't expect every other country to be as careful in their use of language just because we've decided - belatedly - that using racist names is a no-no. Generations of white British people have insulted, mocked and patronised people of other skin colours or ethnic backgrounds and there's a lingering feeling that it's ok to use names like "Paki" in an "affectionate" way. To me, that betrays an attitude of superiority and ignorance which we really should try to control.

 

Again, no-one has said it's ok for a child to be fiercely reprimanded for using language he's picked up from others - all it needs is a a quiet "no, we don't use that word". It isn't hard to explain why, when he asks.

[zico's mum]

I wasnt attempting to contradict myself, just show that my family is made of many nations/colours, yet we still see each other as individuals by name not colour or race, im not refered to as the white woman with irish parents, black husband and mixed race kids, so why refer to anyone else by their skin colour or (possible) country of origin rather than just their name?

 

But surely that's exactly what you did do,no mention of your race yet you described your husband as black when it really wasn't relevant? I've lived in several communities where my skin colour has been in the minority,I'm a New Zealander,I don't feel the need to describe myself as white/Maori/Pacific Islander/Asian/Mediterranean or any of the other myriad of races that make New Zealand what it is - and several of which I have in my genes.

[murtle]

But not by friends who already know your name, surely? That's the point of this thread.

 

We can't expect every other country to be as careful in their use of language just because we've decided - belatedly - that using racist names is a no-no. Generations of white British people have insulted, mocked and patronised people of other skin colours or ethnic backgrounds and there's a lingering feeling that it's ok to use names like "Paki" in an "affectionate" way. To me, that betrays an attitude of superiority and ignorance which we really should try to control.

 

Again, no-one has said it's ok for a child to be fiercely reprimanded for using language he's picked up from others - all it needs is a a quiet "no, we don't use that word". It isn't hard to explain why, when he asks.

 

Yes absoutely by people who know me, to point me out to people who don't know me. But having thought about it yes friends would say - oi shorty as a nickname.

 

The point I was trying to make about Mauritius, is that they don't see it as racist, they don't see it as derogatory, or anything else, that we seem to in the UK. They cherish the differences between people, both in the colour of their skin, the shape of their eyes, their type of hair, their religions etc. We in the UK seem to make more of it then any other country I know. From being in such PC environments in the UK, when asked in Mauritius was it the black guy or the Tamil guy I found it hard to break the mould of saying uhm well er it was the larger of the two, with straighter dark hair then the other (or however he was described) thus trying to ignore the colour of skin - which to me is offensive because you actually aren't seeing the person for who they are. In reality it was easier to say oh it was the black guy (and they were far happier with that). As an example their were two guest relation officers, one was 4ft something little and the other was 5ft something lots. They hated being described by their height but had no problems with being described as the more chinese looking or darker skinned etc.

 

I guess I don't understand why we should ignore the colour of our skin and pretend it's not there. It is, it's the wrapper that holds our insides in. Why should we be ashamed of the colour we are. I remember my ex-MIL being told that all her children (she has 4) were different colours! It upset her a little at the time, but more the way the person who she didn't really know made the comment. When she thought about it and looked at her children she could see why it had been said. One thing I find/found fascinating is when I was in Thailand and Borneo (and I know the same products are sold in the UK) was that the moisturisers that were mainly sold had skin lightening qualities. Therefore for those of us on holiday who all wanted to tan, didn't want things to make us go white, and yet people of darker skin colours wanted to go lighter. The grass is always greener.

 

I actually don't know (this forum excluded) and Pakistani people who have ever objected to being called a Paki, and that may be where the confusion lies. As one mould clearly doesn't fit all. Which comes back to the little boys playing. If the little boy doesn't object to it, then why the telling off. Maybe an explanation that not everyone likes the name? If the little boy does object to it, then why the telling off. An explanation to say why people don't like the name.

 

I personally don't use the term Paki generally, as I know I'm not good at identification of people to know where they come from and for that reason I'd find it offensive. One of my first bosses was always referred to a Paki, she was from Kenya.

Edited May 10, 2009 by murtle

[DanishPastry]

But surely that's exactly what you did do,no mention of your race yet you described your husband as black when it really wasn't relevant? I've lived in several communities where my skin colour has been in the minority,I'm a New Zealander,I don't feel the need to describe myself as white/Maori/Pacific Islander/Asian/Mediterranean or any of the other myriad of races that make New Zealand what it is - and several of which I have in my genes.

 

 

Yes, that's the interesting thing about new zealand...

The 'whites' dont really give any consideration to races (obviously you get some that do, but on the whole, its a bit like the uk in that sense, but it down to that famous kiwi laid back attitude)

 

But the Moaris toward the Somoans, Fijins, Tongans, Orientals........not much love lost there

 

KRUSEWALKER

Edited May 10, 2009 by DanishPastry

[blackmagic]

Many years ago( early 1960's) my uncle had a friend who came from Saudi Arabia, who was studying medicine over here. They were part of a crowd that went out socialising.

 

I was introduced to him as Abdhul, and I always thought that was his name.

 

After several years I was told we don't call him Abdhul anymore, his name is Badir.

 

No explanation, but I now assume that must have been the start of ' being racist'.

[scotslass]

Yes absoutely by people who know me, to point me out to people who don't know me. But having thought about it yes friends would say - oi shorty as a nickname.

 

. We in the UK seem to make more of it then any other country I know. From being in such PC environments in the UK, when asked in Mauritius was it the black guy or the Tamil guy I found it hard to break the mould of saying uhm well er it was the larger of the two, with straighter dark hair then the other (or however he was described) thus trying to ignore the colour of skin - which to me is offensive because you actually aren't seeing the person for who they are. In reality it was easier to say oh it was the black guy (and they were far happier with that). As an example their were two guest relation officers, one was 4ft something little and the other was 5ft something lots. They hated being described by their height but had no problems with being described as the more chinese looking or darker skinned etc.

 

Ok, so that just underlines cultural differences, and probably more. The UK doesn't have a great record on race relations and human rights, whatever we may think nowadays, and there is a legacy of colonialism lingering in the British psyche which can blind us to other nations' sensitivities. I assume you didn't refer to people's height in Mauritius? You would observe it without commenting on it, just as you would if you met an unusually tall person, or a person with a skin blemish or a limp. You notice it's there, but it is not the whole person.

 

. Why should we be ashamed of the colour we are.

 

 

But no-one is suggesting being ashamed of one's colour. It's neither something to be proud of, nor ashamed of. It's just a very small part of who we are.

 

 

I actually don't know (this forum excluded) and Pakistani people who have ever objected to being called a Paki,

 

One of my first bosses was always referred to a Paki, she was from Kenya.

 

And how did she feel about that I wonder? - the fact that she wasn't actually Pakistani is only part of the story. The British have a great knack of calling Johnny Foreigner the first thing that comes to mind, so we can classify him - and basically, it means - you ain't one of us.

 

 

Many years ago( early 1960's) my uncle had a friend who came from Saudi Arabia, who was studying medicine over here. They were part of a crowd that went out socialising.

 

I was introduced to him as Abdhul, and I always thought that was his name.

 

After several years I was told we don't call him Abdhul anymore, his name is Badir.

 

No explanation, but I now assume that must have been the start of ' being racist'.

 

I grew up in Scotland too, and we used to have a salesman who came round the village with a case of clothes - he wore a turban. When I was about 5 or 6, I heard someone shout "here's Johnny the Darkie" and ran to tell my Ma that he was coming round. I was told (gently) that I wasn't to use the word because it was rude. That's all. I wasn't yelled at, or humiliated; just reminded to be polite. I think people were just ignorant - most people in my village had never seen such an exotic specimen (and yes, I did notice that he was brown-skinned, and handsome, and wore a bright turban) and they probably hadn't a clue where he was from (Glasgow! ). Indians were just people on our Sunday School posters, with starving children - we sent our pennies to help them turn into good Christians like us.

 

I do hope we've moved on, but I wonder sometimes.

 

I expect that what you witnessed, blackmagic, was the beginning of the same idea...that it isn't ok to group people into convenient little bundles and give them dinky little names which suit our notion of "otherness".

 

And again (this is not to blackmagic), what I'm saying is...yes, we see skin colour. Yes, we may heard differently accented English spoken. Yes, we may individually know people who don't mind being called Paki. That does not give us the right to start calling every brown-skinned person a Paki. Why take the chance of hurting one person when it's just as easy not to??

[jacqui d]

But surely that's exactly what you did do,no mention of your race yet you described your husband as black when it really wasn't relevant? I've lived in several communities where my skin colour has been in the minority,I'm a New Zealander,I don't feel the need to describe myself as white/Maori/Pacific Islander/Asian/Mediterranean or any of the other myriad of races that make New Zealand what it is - and several of which I have in my genes.

 

 

it was relevant to attempt to show you i come from a multi racial family, yet describe people by there names, my race was mentioned when i said i was british born and both my parents are from Eire

[murtle]

And how did she feel about that I wonder? -

 

It didn't bother her, but if people were interested then she took the time to explain where she was from and how she ended up in firstly Kenya and then secondly the UK.

 

I assume you didn't refer to people's height in Mauritius?

 

No, please don't assume that, these two ladies were sensitive to their height. Just as some people are sensitive to the word Paki. As some are to being called skinny, or ginger, or any other label that we put on people. So as not to offend these two ladies no we didn't stop referring to everyones height, or shape or size, just their height - unless teasing them, yes it happened!

 

so we can classify him - and basically, it means - you ain't one of us.

that I think is a personal opinion, certainly not one I believe in.

 

I do hope we've moved on, but I wonder sometimes.

 

Seriously I don't think the UK will ever move on until it can move away from the PC nonsense and being stuck to its colonial past.

 

The term Paki is offensive because of its racist connotations. Yet was a term that was fine until the point. When it is used without racist connotations it's still no longer acceptable. People live with too much worry of offending people now which I think is very sad.

[scotslass]

The term Paki is offensive because of its racist connotations. Yet was a term that was fine until the point. When it is used without racist connotations it's still no longer acceptable. People live with too much worry of offending people now which I think is very sad.

 

But, as you admit, it does have racist connotations, now that we consider such things. Before, we were blithely using terms such as "darkie", the "n" word, and all the other words which meant non-white, without worrying - we were free to say what we liked because really, we didn't give a damn what other people felt. For a so-called civilised nation, it's shameful that we need legislation to remind us to be polite.

 

In my experience, very few people worry about offending others...believe me, racism is alive and kicking. Only yesterday, I heard a man in a shop (in Scotland - so I'm not accused of anti-Englishness), doing what he thought was a highly amusing parody of a "Paki" shop owner. Oh, how he laughed at his own wit. He can hardly string two sentences together himself, and here he was, feeling free to denigrate a businessman who speaks at least two languages.

 

And the expression "pc nonsense" makes me shudder; it's a favourite of the BNP membership round Bradford. It implies that we're all treading on eggshells around these trouble-making incomers.

 

Which do we prefer? A Britain where we have to be just a bit sensitive to everyone, or a Britain where signs saying "no blacks, no Irish" could be freely displayed, where Catholics couldn't get a job in many Scottish factories - where, in fact, you could say just about anything you liked and no-one would bat an eyelid, because the people with the power were neither black nor Irish nor Catholic? The latter is not my idea of freedom.

 

And all of that is why I think children should be taught not to use racist words. It isn't their fault that they don't understand the connotations - it is our fault, as adults, for using the words in the first place, because we do understand. If kids didn't hear the words, they wouldn't use them.