Greyhound Racing

[greys mum]

Much as I love my greys, I am another one who would like to see the end of greyhound racing.

 

I would also like to congratulate Terrier. I might not agree with her/his reasoning's, but she/he has been polite all the way through. Even though they are a loan voice.

[Jacobean]

Terrier said - "I do believe that they can breed *less* and still have a viable industry, and I also believe that there's scope to rehome more - but all of them? I doubt it."

 

Surely this statement alone tells you that this has to stop. At some point the whole litter (in the majority of cases) is abandoned to it's fate. Whether they make it to the race track or not. There will be a small percentage of Greyhounds that stay with their trainers for life, once retired.

 

Individuals have quoted that a single stud dog can create thousands of dogs. What has happened to those thousands of pups per stud dog. I shudder to think. There aren't enough homes to take in all of these dogs if trainers did try to rehome them all. If they're lucky they are pts humanely. Some luck. I really don't understand having read some of the posts on this thread how anyone could think any good could come from Greyhound racing continuing in any shape or form. Apart from virtual.

[snow]

A little reminder please whilst this is a very emotive subject I'm not at all happy to see remarks cropping up casting judgement on people for holding opinions which differ from the majority. It does nothing to educate and in fact if read by people who react as I do to those kinds of remark they could have quite the opposite affect than intended... and I'm sure I'm not the only contrary fugee on the forum who would react that way

[Terrier]

Your categories seem a bit too black and white to me Terrier. Not all pets are bred from puppy farms / commercial breeders, and not all 'good' breeders breed just for the show ring. So the latter arguably (ie breeders who care about the health and temperament of the breed and not the 'look') is one place where the healthy pets of the future come from (assuming there is no need for rescues of course). You seem to be assuming that if dogs don't have job , activity or 'purpose' then they will all be badly bred. I disagree.

 

You're right. I **am** assuming that a dog that is not bred for an activity is going to be badly bred.

 

That is not to say that badly bred dogs will all necessarily be cripples. It is not to say that all puppy farmed dogs end up in abusive homes. Even the worst bybs and puppy farms will have a proportion of healthy dogs, and some of those might find happy pet homes where they are cherished members of the family.

 

BUT

 

If there isn't a 'purpose' for breeding their dogs, then why are they breeding dogs?

 

Pet breeder = bad breeder in my book. Yes, there are some bloody awful breeders within other activities too (not least within racing!!!).

 

There is no shortage of pet quality dogs, nor is there any way that any breeder can possibly improve on what is already out there. How then, can breeding solely for the pet market be a good thing?

 

Humans are now far removed from our hunter gatherer beginnings, and greyhounds were not originally meant to run round a an artificial track. Owners do not, to my knowledge, run round the track with their dog to 'bond' - in fact many owners probably haven't even met their dog - it is just money making investment to them. Which is wrong in my view.

If a dog is seen purely as a money-making investment, then that's wrong in my view as well!!

 

Taking sports down to an amateur level is something I'm very much in favour of.

 

As for owners not running around the track with their dogs to bond - When I walk my dog I don't run around the field with him either. I couldn't hope to keep up!!!

 

If the demise of greyhound racing led to other activities being scrutinised for welfare issues then I don't have a problem with that tbh. Any activity that causes suffering or welfare issues for dogs is wrong imho.

I'd welcome amateur sports being scrutinised for welfare if it was done honestly. However, little sceptic that I am - I'm not sure it would be.

 

I would be amazed if there was even ONE activity that didn't have at least a few bad apples*. Anyone with half a brain and the inclination to do so would be more than capable of highlighting bad practice (or even good practice misunderstood!).

 

*(and before anyone says anything - I know - the problems within racing run deeper than just a few bad apples!!)

 

I do not see what right humans have to expect that dogs should be overbred / badly treated / disposed of in order to fulfil a human need. I also don't agree that any loss of amateur sports (some of which haven't been around for that long either) means the loss of dogs per se. Are you saying you agree with the view that their should be no such thing as dogs that are purely pets / companions?

Nothing wrong with dogs BEING companions. Every dog I've ever owned has been just that (and wonderful companions they've been too!!).

 

What I'd like to see though is that all pets came from breeders that were active with their dogs. Breeders who knew their dogs well, what they were and were not capable of. What their needs were...etc. etc.

 

Dogs that are bred for other purposes still make wonderful companions (just ask anybody with an ex-racing greyhound!!).

[Jacobean]

If you're referring to me snow I didn't mean it in that way. Feel free to delete my post if you want.

 

Everyone is allowed their opinion and I don't have any problems with someone who feels racing should continue.

Edited July 31, 2008 by Jacobean

[Terrier]

Snow/greysmum:

 

Thank you. Your comments are appreciated.

 

I'll come back to this debate, there's more I want to say (particularly in response to posts by cycas and ReikiAnge - probably others too that I'd like to reply to) - but for now I'm going to take a break. All this staring at the screen is beginning to make my eyes go square.

 

FWIW Jacobean, I've not taken offence to anything you have said.

[snow]

If you're referring to me snow I didn't mean it in that way. Feel free to delete my post if you want.

 

Everyone is allowed their opinion and I don't have any problems with someone who feels racing should continue.

 

No Michelle I wasn't refering to your post - theres been a few remarks made by more than one individual that have sailed close to the wind so a reminder seemed in order it just happened to come after your post is all

[jane-f]

I am thinking various thoughts.

 

Firstly, its more likely that welfare reforms/lack of attendance at tracks could potentially end the affordability of the majority of greyhound owners. That wouldn't necessarily end racing but it could create problems in that it would really be those only in it for money that would be able to financially sustain the "sport". Which may mean longer term that the welfare aspect could become hidden deeper.

 

One thing I have learned is that your Joe Bloggs owner does it for the competitiveness rather than plain old money. Thats not to say money won't come into it. However you then have to look at who are the big moneymakers in the sport. The bookies. The trainers who are taking and running BAGS dogs. The tracks through BAGS sponorship. The greyhound dealers. The breeders.

 

 

 

 

Any law made in England would have a direct impact on the Irish breeders which would mean a significant reduction in the numbers that are bred. I would strongly doubt the Irish racing industry could financially support itself to be able to continue and would eventually fold. I also strongly suspect those who have made mega money from breeding greyhounds (good stud dogs 2000 euros a pop) would find something more profitable than greyhounds if the money wasn't there.

 

Majority of the dogs going through the auctions in Ireland are either bought by people who will then transport them to England/UK or by the dog dealers who will buy in Ireland and bring them to the English auctions. Therefore I imagine that if the Irish greyhound Board was able to sustain greyhound racing in their country without the financial boost the UK gives them whatever they did breed and sell would be a significant reduction in what the current situation is.

 

Peterborough, Perry Barr etc auctions are nothing compared to what you face in the Irish auctions. At least there is a pretence for animal welfare (believe it or not) in the UK which there certainly isnt in Ireland. I would like to think these horrific places would be a thing of the past shoudl racing end in the UK for whatever reason.

 

Cyprus also has racing as does Morocco although Morocco was supposed to close, it didn't. But again, a lot of these dogs are transported out but there are fewer transports now Spain has stopped and its unlikely that export abroad would be viable to sustain the Irish breeding/dealing/racing industry.

 

 

 

Fab post Cycas. The difficulty is that people hear 'ban greyhound racing' and they jump immediately to all sorts of conclusions instead of listening/reading what this could entail - its frustrating!

 

I just want to add that GA Scotland is a separate organisation and our 'mission' is to outlaw the breeding, training and racing of greyhounds in Scotland. This is because if same was banned in England or any other part of the UK, Scotland would not recognise this. However Westminster retains power over gambling, taxes etc in Scotland therefore we could not achieve a ban of betting on dogs in Scotland - that would have to be UK wide legislation.

 

We have written up how a ban could be brought in but I think its more specific to Scotland than the rest of the UK with the exception of maybe Wales. Thats because Scotland has five flapping tracks and only one NGRC hence why I've put the bit about racing becoming unaffordable for most which could lead to the end of it in Scotland if the right reforms were brought in.

 

Its all very complex though. Whatever way no legislation would ban greyhound racing without a time period - we recommended two year period which would mean there would be a reduction in dogs bought in for racing an it would naturally die out. n Given teh average career is 18 months this shouldn't create much more wastage than 'normal'.

 

 

 

My understanding is that there are some still being transported to Spain and that could be the reason behind it. Our 'mate' Normilles is still doing the occasional run apparently.

 

 

 

 

What are you basing that theory on? Personally I dont' think for one second those who race greyhounds would change to whippets. They're different dogs for a start and any legislation which ends greyhound racing would take into account any such issues that could be transferred to other animals.

 

I dont' think this is a valid argument for not banning greyhound racing or has any real basis other than to worry whippet owners. Remember the scaremongering (that failed to materialise) when the hunting with dogs legislation came in?

 

 

I didn't put it down as a valid argument for not banning greyhound racing - where have i said that.

what i am basing it on is the amount of clubs and tracks that are now racing whippets, the amount of whippets being breed for racing,

there are probably around 30 whippet clubs round the country maby more - i haven't looked properly,

most of these are being raced at track's, the track near us - now classes its self as a grey and whippet track,

and i know there are mostly whippets being raced there now,

i know a few people who race greys that do race whippets as well.

 

as ive said before - the hunting legislation well its a load of c**p,

There are still quite a lot of people who hunt with dogs.

the only thing it affected was the hunts.

[cycas]

The end of that "sport" that bulldogs took part in wasn't the end of the bulldog either. I rather wish it had been.

 

I think the bulldog has been particularly unfortunate, perhaps because it is the 'national dog', because it seems to have fallen into the hands of some particularly idiotic breeders, and probably also because there was very little understanding of either biology or genetics over much of the 20th century. We do know a bit more about that sort of thing now. Another example might be the bull terrier or the Staffy - both lost their 'purpose' at the same time, yet they are not horribly deformed dogs that cannot work or walk. OK, we have far too many Staffies, but that's not anything to do with their loss of 'purpose'.

 

I'm not against people racing their dogs of any breed on a strictly amateur basis - my greyhound loves to race, I'd put her in a fun race on the beach or somewhere and I am not concerned about that sort of thing. But I just do not believe that you can have a commercial racing industry of any kind and not have significant hardship to the dogs, nor do I accept your belief that dogs bred to race are healthy desirable dogs that are of higher 'quality' than dogs not bred for a purpose.

 

Don't get me wrong, I adore my ex-racer and will certainly adopt more ex-racers in future, but the dogs that come to me will be the lucky ones who by sheer chance ended up with a relatively low prey drive (I have cats and rabbits). These dogs are not really typical of the poor animals manufactured by the industry. On a strictly health level, I do not think that they are particularly healthy dogs compared with pet bred or entirely random mixes, and judging by the difference in insurance costs between my greyhound and my lurcher, the insurance industry agrees with me.

 

And for every dog that comes out low prey drive, a perfect easy pet like mine, there are dogs that are put to sleep on retirement because they are considered temperamentally unsuited to be rehomed, and also plenty that are such loopy noodle-brains that they never learn a reliable recall or even full house training. To a greyhound breeder, there is nothing between those three types of dog, apart from how fast they run. Now there are people that will adopt a loopy noodlebrain anyway, because they are nice people, but to say that breeding purely for speed produces 'better' dogs is just not true so far as I can see.

Edited July 31, 2008 by cycas

[jane-f]

The more I think about this, the more I come to this conclusion:

 

To defend greyhound racing and want to keep it, you either need to be:

 

a) oblivious of the facts

b) actively involved

c) a callous person who really doesn't care about the dogs welfare

 

Given the facts and first hand experiences have been added to this thread for many days now, no-one reading it can be in the a) category. So the defenders have to be b) or c), which is downright worrying on an animal welfare forum

 

I would say no to all 3,

i do know what go's on in the racing industry - have seen it for myself.

i have never been involved in the racing industry - and never will be, dont even own a grey.

C) wont even answer that one.

 

i would like greyhound racing to go - never have said that i wouldn't,

but what does concern me, is what about those people who do it just for the love of seeing there dogs

doing something they was breed to do, the love of watching them run and have fun,

these people are going to be ostracized because of the want of racing banned,

 

whats to stop it all being banned - including lure coursing,

after all its still a form of racing .

[ClazUK]

Jane/Terrier...... honest question time....

 

I and a lot of others have said I'd be prepared to lose 'my' breed (greyhounds) if that's what it meant to end racing.

 

Would you guys not be prepared to lose lure coursing/fun running/whatever it is you do to save tens of thousands of deaths each year?

 

I don't actually believe that would happen - as was said earlier, people still hunt with dogs, it's 'The Hunts' affected. But I'm trying to gauge what is more important to you - the sport you personally partake in or the bigger picture?

Edited July 31, 2008 by ClazUK

[Maria]

BUT

 

If there isn't a 'purpose' for breeding their dogs, then why are they breeding dogs?

 

I would suggest that for the majority of people (and it's certainly true for those I know), they choose to open their homes to a dog for companionship / pet purposes, not for any specific 'activity' or other 'purpose'. Most people I know are happy to share their lives with their dogs, enjoy taking them out for walks / on holiday etc, and maybe occasionally go to 'fun' events. I don't believe you have to share a purpose or activity in order to bond with them. Some people like to adopt older dogs who might not be able to fulfill a 'purpose' other than being a companion anyway I do agree that dogs that were bred for specific purposes can make wonderful companions - our ex puppy farmed girl does, and like greyhound racing,that's an example of where financial motives override any welfare issues.

 

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth but am struggling to understand - are you saying that there should be no such thing as dogs that are purely pets / companions?

Edited July 31, 2008 by Maria

[Abigailj]

I'm kind of pleased that I didn't notice this thread until now (else I'd have spent the last 5 days of my holiday glued to the pc).

 

Most people here already know my thoughts about greyhound racing. In brief, having spent 5 years thinking this over, I'm still not convinced it is possible to have a greyhound racing industry without abuse of the greyhounds (commodities) upon which the activity relies.

 

By the way, there is an URGENT greyhound welfare topic here (don't want everyone to miss it)

Edited July 31, 2008 by Abigailj

[Mrs Mop]

Sorry but i just needed to point something out, you will find the whippet is very common and isnt run in many fun competitions much any more, the whippet is heading the same way as the greyhound is now, they are raced in betting races for the general public, talking to the woman from the breed society who is the re-homer for the breed a few months ago, they are getting quite a few whippets in for re-homing, both show and x racing dogs, you only have to look on K9 to see the amount of people who race whippets at race tracks

the amount of whippet racing clubs there are now, there has even been started a whippet racing club federation who drug tests the dogs before races, if its only fun why do they need to test the dogs.

 

Whippet racing has always been like this Jane, Bill's uncle used to breed and train them going all over the country to race them. When I started going out with Bill he had just decided not to breed or race again because he was getting too old. He won a lot and his pups were always in big demand because he produced winners but they were all raced on the straight, the didn't have bends.

 

There used to be a Whippet race track at Colne Bridge, Brighouse, but that finished many years ago.

 

Bill's uncle always kept his old dogs as pets when their racing career had finished.

[Mrs Mop]

i would like greyhound racing to go - never have said that i wouldn't,

but what does concern me, is what about those people who do it just for the love of seeing there dogs

doing something they was breed to do, the love of watching them run and have fun,

these people are going to be ostracized because of the want of racing banned,

 

whats to stop it all being banned - including lure coursing,

after all its still a form of racing .

 

I never doubted that you would like to see Greyhound racing go Jane, You are bringing up ideas that others haven't thought about.

 

We all love to see our dogs run and there are other ways of running our dogs without the Greyhound racing industry. At many agriculture shows they now have Terrier racing and is very popular and I have seen Whippets run over the same course at these shows.