Greyhound Racing

[ClazUK]

I don't see that a killing off racing would help canine welfare. Suppose racing were stopped tomorrow. What then?

 

What exactly has changed? Dogs can no longer chase an artificial hare. That's it. Most of the problems within racing happen away from the track.

I'm trying very hard not to here. What has changed?! I know you read the stats from the APGAW last night, so how can you possibly ask?

 

The market for 35 to 40,000 dogs to be bred every year will stop. Immediately. Even if racing goes underground the market for 'new' greyhounds will almost disappear overnight.

[Fee]

I'm sorry, Terrier, but I must admit I find the picture of large crowds of punters turning out for a night betting on spaniels doing flyball quite amusing

 

Other doggy sports are quite different from racing, they are done by pet owners for fun and because their dogs enjoy it in the main. ONLY greyhound racing breeds dogs specifically for one purpose in such vast numbers there could never conceivably be homes for all of them. No amount of reform or welfare improvement is going to change that fact.

 

I am quite sure greyhound racing WILL stop eventually. Whether it will happen through legislation or through gradual decline as fewer and fewer people see exploiting animals for 'entertainment' as acceptable I'm not sure. I just hope it's in my lifetime and I get to celebrate.

[Happylittlegreensquirrel]

Why not ban?

 

Put simply - I don't see that a killing off racing would help canine welfare. Suppose racing were stopped tomorrow. What then?

 

 

I disagree , I think banning racing would be one of the single biggest advances in canine welfare in years

 

as to what would happen

 

a ban would not come over night and yes a lot of dogs would need homes but they are the same dogs that need homes now as soon as they are unfit ,unwanted or not suitable for racing etc

 

I am sure that rescue centres would be overwhelmed as a lot of them are now but equally a lot of dogs never make it to rescue centres or are even euthininised humanly. A lot of dogs just disappear , are sold overseas or are killed by bolt guns etc so if they did make it to a rescue centre after a ban thats a result for the dog ?

 

 

I am sure that many trainers and owners of greys would say without racing they could not afford to keep the dogs and on mass dump them , ooh no hang on thats what happens now regularly when the dogs are no longer profitable so no real change there then

 

what does change is that future generations of greys won't be breed to service an industry that abuses and neglects them and disposes of them,

 

 

like I say in my humble opinion a huge advance in canine welfare

[JulesB]

put simply racing is a financial exercise for all ( humans ) involved , breeders , trainers, track owners and punters are all earning or gambling money

 

it's not about dogs, it's not about sport, cultural or community its about money , people can dress it up and down as much as they like but its about money and making money on the suffering of another living creature

 

a ban would not come over night and yes a lot of dogs would need homes but they are the same dogs that need homes now as soon as they are unfit ,unwanted or not suitable for racing etc

 

I am sure that many trainers and owners of greys would say without racing they could not afford to keep the dogs and on mass dump them , ooh no hang on thats what happens now regularly when the dogs are no longer profitable so no real change there then

 

what does change is that future generations of greys won't be breed to service an industry that abuses and neglects them and disposes of them,

 

I'm another one who would like to see a ban on racing. I'm hopeless at debating so have stolen a couple of Sam Squiggs posts that put it far better than I could. My heart belongs to pointy dogs but like others I'd willingly not have another if racing meant the end of the breed.

[Maria]

I would ban greyhound racing in a heartbeat if I could (and anything else where dogs do or potentially suffer in order to win accolades /prizes /money/ for humans).

 

However,

Other doggy sports are quite different from racing, they are done by pet owners for fun and because their dogs enjoy it in the main. ONLY greyhound racing breeds dogs specifically for one purpose in such vast numbers there could never conceivably be homes for all of them. No amount of reform or welfare improvement is going to change that fact.

 

I have recently heard things about activities like agility / flyball etc which does make me suspect it could go a similar way to racing / showing (although nowhere near the same scale), if the type of rewards (for humans) change. Eg a rescue having a dog returned after a couple of years because it turned out not to enjoy/ be good enough for one of these activities. From what I've read (no real proof of 'evidence' I know) it seems that some owners are so competitive already that dogs are swapped / rehomed due to how they perform in these 'hobbies' or if they get too old, something which is alien to me as someone who primarily wants to share their home with a companion, rather than a means to and end. So in that respect (but not on greyhound racing) I can see what the point Terrier is trying to make.

[Kathyw]

A complete end to racing is the only thing I would ever be happy with. Reform can never be good enough.

If that meant no more greyhounds were bred, I'd be happy with that too,

 

 

I would be very happy if there were not a next generation I'm afraid, my joy in greyhounds lost would be a very small price to pay to end the misery to thousands and thousands.

Greyhounds are not fit and healthy, rotten teeth added to your list.

 

I have never had a Greyhound or Whippet so doctored your posts a bit but I whole heartedly agree with everything said.

And I would willingly live without dogs if it meant that controls on breeding gave them better welfare standards.

 

A complete ban on Dog racing and Horse racing.

[Terrier]

I would ban greyhound racing in a heartbeat if I could (and anything else where dogs do or potentially suffer in order to win accolades /prizes /money/ for humans).

 

However,

 

 

I have recently heard things about activities like agility / flyball etc which does make me suspect it could go a similar way to racing / showing (although nowhere near the same scale), if the type of rewards (for humans) change. Eg a rescue having a dog returned after a couple of years because it turned out not to enjoy/ be good enough for one of these activities. From what I've read (no real proof of 'evidence' I know) it seems that some owners are so competitive already that dogs are swapped / rehomed due to how they perform in these 'hobbies' or if they get too old, something which is alien to me as someone who primarily wants to share their home with a companion, rather than a means to and end. So in that respect (but not on greyhound racing) I can see what the point Terrier is trying to make.

That certainly is a concern.

 

I take the view that there is not one single area within life, never mind dog ownership that can claim perfection. Wherever you look, there are good people and bad people. Even then, good people are capable of doing bad things, bad people capable of doing good.

 

If the argument for banning racing is that it can never be perfect, then I'd have to question what well have left.

 

I'm trying very hard not to here. What has changed?! I know you read the stats from the APGAW last night, so how can you possibly ask?

 

The market for 35 to 40,000 dogs to be bred every year will stop. Immediately. Even if racing goes underground the market for 'new' greyhounds will almost disappear overnight.

Please don't

 

I must admit I have not read the whole of the APGAW report yet, but I did read the pages you highlighted and the stats you provided.

 

I've not yet seen anything in there that suggests that the problems within racing could not resurface in any other sport.

 

You say the market for 35-40000 dogs bred every year will stop. Certainly it would stop for racing greyhounds, but if that market was then to resurface with say, collies, would that be any better?

 

My concerns about the call to kill off racing remain.

 

1. How do we stop the problems within greyhound racing from resurfacing in other sports?

 

2. Once racing has gone, would those people that are currently campaigning against greyhound racing attack the amateur sports anyway - irrespective of the welfare standards applied?

[Terrier]

There is nothing to stop betting on flyball etc now. Many people will bet on anything no matter what it is and if they don't have something to bet on they will find something. Doesn't mean that we have to stand back and let them carry on with Greyhound racing.

I disagree. There is a lack of a market for betting on (eg) flyball, possibly because greyhound racing is still available for those that want to bet.

 

I am NOT suggesting that we should just "stand back and let them carry on". I really can't understand why you think that's what I'm suggesting. I'm asking whether we should push for the REFORM OR DEMISE of racing. Whether we should push for the sport to be run BETTER, or NOT AT ALL.

[Terrier]

I was rather assuming that due to the practical problems of legally identifying a 'greyhound' and a 'race' that legislation would take the form of a ban on betting on dog sports, and a ban on prizes for dog sports with a monetary value of more than, say £10, rather than an actual ban on greyhound racing as such. That's how I'd phrase it anyway, remove the financial incentive and kill the industry that way.

If this was the focus of the anti-racing campaign I could probably support that. There's certainly (imo) a strong case for banning large prizes for animal sports.

 

I'm not quite sure how the finances work within the sport, so couldn't say what effect the betting has. I suspect it has a role to play in funding the large prizes, but then I'm guessing. I'd appreciate some insight into that.

 

Banning large prizes would - at a stroke - get rid of those within the sport that put money ahead of the welfare of the dogs. There might still be a hardcore of enthusiasts, that meet for the love of the sport, putting it in a similar line to the amateur sports.

 

I still have some concerns, particularly regarding whether and to what extent the pressure from certain groups would ease if the sport was taken to an amateur level.

[ClazUK]

Once racing has gone, would those people that are currently campaigning against greyhound racing attack the amateur sports anyway - irrespective of the welfare standards applied?

 

I still have some concerns, particularly regarding whether and to what extent the pressure from certain groups would ease if the sport was taken to an amateur level.

 

Why is this such a big concern to you? You will always get the 'rent-a-mob' campaigner but personally I'd be very pleased to sit down and relax a bit if/when greyhound racing stops.

[Terrier]

Why is this such a big concern to you? You will always get the 'rent-a-mob' campaigner but personally I'd be very pleased to sit down and relax a bit if/when greyhound racing stops.

Quite apart from the fact that it's a great way for a dog and owner to bond - (ie. taking part in activities together), a dog that is bred for a specific activity must be able to perform that activity. This usually requires a certain level of health/fitness and/or a certain temperament.

 

It's a concern because if we lost the amateur sports, where would the next generation of dogs come from? What would the next generation of dogs be bred for?

 

(NB - I accept there is a school of thought that there shouldn't be another generation of dogs, that their extinction is something to push for, but whilst there is a demand for pets, dogs will be created. My preference is for these dogs to be healthy and of sound temperament.)

 

With that in mind, we have these:

 

Working? I'm certainly in favour of dogs being bred to work, but there aren't many jobs left that dogs still do. Even of those that remain, I can't name one that isn't under fire (albeit unjustifiably IMO) from AR campaigners.

 

Conformation? Already we can see the decline in the health of some breeds that have been bred solely for the show ring without any kind of performance testing. The bulldog and GSD are probably the most obvious ones, but there are loads of others. You need only look at the difference between show and working bred equivalents to see the difference - what these breeds *should* be like. Conformation also needs reform imo.

 

Pets? Hopefully I don't have to explain why backyard breeders and puppy mills are a bad thing.

 

Breeding dogs for a specific purpose means - by necessity - that the dogs produced must be fit, healthy &/or have a specific, reliable temperament. Take away any need for health or reliability of temperament and what have you got? Crippled dogs that are temperamentally unsound.

 

There is a hell of a lot wrong with racing. Much of this industry I find abhorrent. However, I'm sure that we don't have to push for greater production of temperamentally unsound &/or crippled dogs to solve those problems.

 

There has to be a better way. I accept that no reform will never make racing perfect. **Nothing** will ever be perfect, but if we can make positive changes to the welfare of the greyhounds concerned, we'd be moving in the right direction.

Edited July 30, 2008 by Terrier

[redditchlady]

My biggest question though, is - where should the next generation of dogs come from? If not from breeders that are striving for a dog that is fit for a particular purpose, then where?

 

No more Greyhounds, simple as!!

 

 

pretty much sums it up for me too. As much as i love my hounds, i would give them up to save the thousands dying every year in the name of sport. I would like to see the same eventually happen with horse racing too

 

Agree with Di on this one

 

I think I understand your point elricc, and although I personally disagree - I also respect the opinion that dogs should be extinct. I suppose the crux of my argument comes from the assumption that people wanted dog ownership to continue. I've had that discussion before, and the moral argument could frankly have gone either way.

 

I don't know much about the laws governing the transportation of live animals but that's certainly another area that needs reform.

 

Rotten teeth - although undoubtedly susceptible to rotten teeth, rotten teeth are not a requirement for racing. Off the top of my head, another reform that could be implemented could be regular veterinary checkup to include teeth - dogs not allowed to race unless they've passed the check within a certain timeframe? Where a dog that has not passed a(n openly auditable) medical within the last x months cannot race?

 

 

Fair enough - but my concern is for the whole species, not just one breed.

 

As for cruelty and neglect, I'm not sure that any arena can claim it has a perfect record there.

 

 

Sorry, but do you see the cruelty every day in real life?? Just 1 dog suffering to me is more than enough. I will apologise before I get banned permanently but you are talking out of your backside.

 

Dogs do NOT need to race on tracks that get injured full stop. Simple as.

 

I have never had a Greyhound or Whippet so doctored your posts a bit but I whole heartedly agree with everything said.

And I would willingly live without dogs if it meant that controls on breeding gave them better welfare standards.

 

A complete ban on Dog racing and Horse racing.

 

 

Thanks Kathy my sentiments exactly.

[cycas]

Breeding dogs for a specific purpose means - by necessity - that the dogs produced must be fit, healthy &/or have a specific, reliable temperament.

 

I'm afraid that I simply do not agree with you that greyhound racing produces fit healthy dogs of sound temperament. It produces dogs that can run in a circle very very fast for a very short period while they are young, that tend to get on well with other greyhounds and rarely bite people. I do not agree that this is the same thing at all. There is a positive commercial incentive to breed faster and faster dogs, no matter what impact that has on the dog's life. If greyhound racers could breed a dog that would run 5 mph faster but would die instantly if it hit something, I think they would. There would be a strong commercial incentive: more wins and fewer bills.

 

Not do I agree that raising dogs for non-commercial purposes has to result in blind deaf dogs that can't walk. Puppy farming is indeed a very bad thing, but I don't see why an end to commercial exploitation of the greyhound necessarily leads to increased puppy farming, or to breeding unhealthy animals.

Edited July 30, 2008 by cycas

[Terrier]

I'm afraid that I simply do not agree with you that greyhound racing produces fit healthy dogs of sound temperament. It produces dogs that can run in a circle very very fast for a very short period while they are young, that tend to get on well with other greyhounds and rarely bite people. I do not agree that this is the same thing at all.

 

Not do I agree that raising dogs for non-commercial purposes has to result in blind deaf dogs that can't walk. Puppy farming is indeed a very bad thing, but I don't see why an end to commercial exploitation of the greyhound necessarily leads to increased puppy farming, or to breeding unhealthy animals.

What I'm saying is that breeding for a purpose requires a certain level of fitness and/or reliable temperament. That doesn't necessarily mean ALL-ROUND fitness I grant you - but ensuring their fitness in some areas is surely better than not ensuring their fitness at all.

 

WRT raising dogs for non-commercial purposes. I think we're at cross purposes here. I am not in favour of commercial breeding. NOT AT ALL.

 

Where do you suggest that the next generation of dogs should come from if not those that are bred for a purpose? Or does that not matter?

 

Alternatively, do you believe that the amateur sports would be left alone if commercial racing were killed off?

 

I do agree with you about the commercial element to greyhound racing being a MAJOR worry.

Edited July 30, 2008 by Terrier

[Rudi]

I can't see for a minute that people would transfer their interest in greyhound racing to other amateur dog sports. There's an assumption that people's interest is in the dogs themselves, and it probably isn't. Perhaps if it were, there wouldn't be so much wrong with the industry. I know people who have been to the races who have absolutely no interest in the dogs - their interest is in a social event that involves gambling and there's already lots of other outlets for those things.

 

Does anyone know how much effort goes into preparing a greyhound for running - is there hours of training?

Edited July 30, 2008 by Rudi