Greyhound Racing

[kats n greys]

A couple of points to make here.

 

You mention industry published figures. My understanding (and one of my biggest objections to the industry) was that there were no such figures available. Where would I find this info - I'd be interested to see that.

 

Next, I'd like to challenge your assertion that no education or reform would ever stop the fact that such a low ratio are good racers. Why not?

 

(sorry - statto alert) You mention a mean average of 25% of dogs bred actually making it to the track. Are there any figures regarding the deviation?

 

To put it another way, if we get the (roughly) 2 in 8 racers every time there's a litter, then that point would stand. However - I'm again possibly highlighting my lack of understanding here - but don't we find litters where NONE make the track, whilst others have 5,6,7...?

 

The point I'm making is that if people who don't know what they are doing decide to take 2 GHs (eg the first male and female they find) and breed a few litters in the hope of finding successful ones, they are less likely to be successful in getting dogs to the track than somebody who has researched properly before finding a suitable pairing.

 

Both these breeders would be included in the stats, wouldn't they?

 

I'm pretty sure that they could do better than a 25% success rate.

 

Greyhound Data provides sad reading

 

The figures I quoted for Con's dad are taken from there.

 

The top performers in the offspring of the Sire Droopys Kewell

From the 5766 offspring 675 (12%) did run in major/feature races = 4364.0 points

Bearing in mind that Droopys Kewell is 9yrs old so probably has a few more years before he's retired from stud, then of course they can use his sperm, so he'll continue having off-spring for years.

 

Then you have Lloyd a ringer- his tattoo is another dog completely, I wonder if his whole litter had the same misfortune.

[Rudi]

Greyhound Data provides sad reading

 

The figures I quoted for Con's dad are taken from there.

 

The top performers in the offspring of the Sire Droopys Kewell

From the 5766 offspring 675 (12%) did run in major/feature races = 4364.0 points

Bearing in mind that Droopys Kewell is 9yrs old so probably has a few more years before he's retired from stud, then of course they can use his sperm, so he'll continue having off-spring for years.

 

Then you have Lloyd a ringer- his tattoo is another dog completely, I wonder if his whole litter had the same misfortune.

 

So one dog produced 5091 puppies that never ran?? That's truly shocking. Even if there was huge pet market for the dogs that don't race, it couldn't keep up.

[cycas]

Greyhound Data provides sad reading

 

The figures I quoted for Con's dad are taken from there.

 

The top performers in the offspring of the Sire Droopys Kewell

From the 5766 offspring 675 (12%) did run in major/feature races = 4364.0 points

 

Mollydog's dad Mustang Jack:

 

From the 4673 offspring 337 (8%) did run in major/feature races = 1669.0 points

 

though to be fair, Mustang Jack has no recorded races, and I'm not sure that can be right: surely he must have done something for so many breeders to want to use him as a sire? I know that Molls had 5 races but only one of them is in greyhound-data. I am not sure that its data is accurate enough to make conclusions on.

[ClazUK]

Shadows Grandad:

The top performers in the offspring of the Sire Daleys Gold

From the 2291 offspring 47 (3%) did run in major/feature races = 473.0 points

 

One of the recent big breeders:

The top performers in the offspring of the Sire Spiral Nikita

From the 6647 offspring 955 (15%) did run in major/feature races = 6254.0 points

 

I think the older the data is, the more patchy it gets. But if you look at they younger prolific stud dogs, the race history etc is more comprehensive.

[ReikiAnge]

We will never change the opinion of the hardened racers, we can and are changing the opininions of the general public. Change it enough, and racing will be banned.

 

I think this is a valid point. Just like puppy farming, educating the "consumer", rather than the industry which is motivated by profit, hopefully if enough decent people can be put off supporting the industry through betting on and attending races, racing will naturally decline (is it already?).

 

I would like to see greyhound racing banned - I sit firmly in the I would like greyhound racing to end corner - and I would like it to end with as little suffering as possible for the dogs, however that is best achieved. Whether the government is likely to ban either greyhound racing or puppy farming, I have my doubts

[cycas]

I think the older the data is, the more patchy it gets. But if you look at they younger prolific stud dogs, the race history etc is more comprehensive.

 

that data has to be somewhere, I'd love to know where. Mustang Jack's last recorded litter was born 2006 so his sperm was still busy quite recently : someone must know why!

[Melp]

A complete end to racing is the only thing I would ever be happy with. Reform can never be good enough.

If that meant no more greyhounds were bred, I'd be happy with that too, even though it means I'd never share my home with another one.

[cycas]

I forgot to say what I think! I would also like to see the end of it. The reasons I think regulation is particularly likely to fail to work properly:

 

- you can keep and breed greyhounds pretty much anywhere - a shed, a back room - unlike horse racing, you don't need that much space and it's so easy to do without attracting the attention of the authorities, because greyhounds are only little - and take the muzzle off and suddenly you have 'just a pet'. Same problem with policing dogfighting, only more so. And yes, I appreciate that dogfighting still goes on, but at least it is illegal and when found, it's stopped. Make racing illegal, and you'd at least vastly reduce the scale.

 

- greyhounds produce such huge numbers, so fast. I don't know that much about horse racing, but at least you don't get 9 new horses a year from one mare.

 

I am not sure if I had a choice of ending puppy farming or greyhound racing which I'd go after first though. Much though I like greyhounds, I'm inclined to think the puppy farming problem is even worse. Basically, an end to both would be nice.

 

Also, what Melps said: I like greyhounds a lot but I could live without them if there was no huge rescue surplus.

 

And as I said in another thread, the overdevelopment of the racing dog makes me uncomfortable too. I mean, it's not quite at bulldog level, but they are definitely dogs that have been bred to an extreme for the convenience of people. Dogs should not be transparent.

Edited July 28, 2008 by cycas

[Terrier]

Greyhound Data provides sad reading

 

The figures I quoted for Con's dad are taken from there.

 

The top performers in the offspring of the Sire Droopys Kewell

From the 5766 offspring 675 (12%) did run in major/feature races = 4364.0 points

Bearing in mind that Droopys Kewell is 9yrs old so probably has a few more years before he's retired from stud, then of course they can use his sperm, so he'll continue having off-spring for years.

 

Then you have Lloyd a ringer- his tattoo is another dog completely, I wonder if his whole litter had the same misfortune.

Quick question - how is a "major/feature race" defined?

 

This probably just shows up my lack of understanding, but the way I read that is that 12% ran in (say) top graded races. An A9 racer still makes it to the track, but perhaps isn't included in that 12%.

 

As for Lloyd - have you told anybody within racing about that? If somebody is dodgy enough to put in a ringer, what else are they going to do?

 

I forgot to say what I think! I would also like to see the end of it. The reasons I think regulation is particularly likely to fail to work properly:

 

- you can keep and breed greyhounds pretty much anywhere - a shed, a back room - unlike horse racing, you don't need that much space and it's so easy to do without attracting the attention of the authorities, because greyhounds are only little - and take the muzzle off and suddenly you have 'just a pet'. Same problem with policing dogfighting, only more so. And yes, I appreciate that dogfighting still goes on, but at least it is illegal and when found, it's stopped. Make racing illegal, and you'd at least vastly reduce the scale.

If you made it illegal, I think you'd kill it outright. You can (if you so wish) hide a dog fight in a room of your house. I'm not sure how you'd hide a race track.

 

However, there is surely an opportunity for control. Make racing more open and publically accountable (who owns what dog, raced when etc etc) and you'll certainly cut the numbers bred. Licensed kennels (albeit with higher standards than there are now) regularly inspected would surely make it very difficult to hide any dodgy goings on.

 

I am not sure if I had a choice of ending puppy farming or greyhound racing which I'd go after first though. Much though I like greyhounds, I'm inclined to think the puppy farming problem is even worse. Basically, an end to both would be nice.

I know which I'd go after first!!

 

Also, what Melps said: I like greyhounds a lot but I could live without them if there was no huge rescue surplus.

They are still bred for conformation, and probably for coursing in countries where that's still legal.

 

Even if racing were lost - I can see them being bred for lure coursing.

 

And as I said in another thread, the overdevelopment of the racing dog makes me uncomfortable too. I mean, it's not quite at bulldog level, but they are definitely dogs that have been bred to an extreme for the convenience of people. Dogs should not be transparent.

An extreme? Perhaps, but imo an ability to run very fast is not a bad extreme to have. I'd consider it nowhere near bulldog level. Not even in the same league.

 

However, with the example of the bulldog - you have brought up a major concern I have about the movement to end racing. Racing is one of the few areas we have left where there is some form of test for the dog's health (There would be no benefit to a greyhound with dodgy hips being bred).

 

I recognise that the Greenpark Fox line has its problems. Thing is, Greenpark Fox stands out because there are health problems in that line. That is, genetic weakness is the exception - not the rule as in many other breeds.

 

The (KC) bulldog is a prime example of what can happen when a dog is no longer bred for a purpose. Today's KC bulldog is imo a shameful parody of the breed a century ago. Look also at the GSD, should be a great working dog, but the GSD of today is an absolute travesty.

 

Is that what we want for the greyhound?

[Terrier]

I haven't got the time, inclination or ability (I have difficulty with basic math) to work out exact percentages, but don't forget the stats I provide here are only relative to 2006, these will fluctuate. My 25% came from other people who are far more articulate than me and can probably operate a calculator better than I can. Forgive me if it's a few percent out but we are still talking tens of thousands of dogs, here.

 

And yes, possibly a good litter might all race where a 'bad' one may not race at all. But what reforms are ever going to change that? They still breed from the Greenpark Fox line which is acknowledged to have a suceptibility to cancer - how are you going to ask them to stop breeding other lines?

 

25% is pretty close - I'm not going to quibble over a few percent.

 

Thanks for the link.

 

As for stopping them from breeding other lines - I'm not sure. Perhaps increased levies (money raised to rgt) for each dog bred. Perhaps some form of quota system. I'm not sure.

 

However, if there were some way of limiting (either through financial penalty or legislation) the numbers bred, the breeder is forced (or at least more inclined) to take more care that the dogs produced are fit for purpose.

[elricc]

but according to the racing industry greenpark fox dogs are fit for purpose, they couldn't give a stuff if a few years down the line a dog dies painfully from osteosarcoma.

My Caz died of osteosarcoma at 9, he waited till he was seven to live with me and my family, he lived in a shed after being "retired" and ran on a flapping track. My Mable died of a bizarre blood disorder which my then vet said was probably linked to doping in her racing career. Peggy is also a greenpark fox lineage. Who knows what genes my lurchers have.

I also saw greyhounds from the Rome track, that will haunt me for years, dogs with permanently shaved legs where they had had drugs to improve performance, dogs which only ever had their muzzles removed to eat a mush, so that they could cram them in pairs in tiny kennles. The muzzles had worn their noses down and there teeth were rotten Also 9 yr old bitches running on meridiana track in Barcelona, the saddest sight I have ever seen. Both shut down .

I think that if you think racing will never be banned you buy into the negative mindset, I bet little children would still be working in mills and being shoved up chimneys if people still had that mindset.

[celeste]

I also saw greyhounds from the Rome track, that will haunt me for years, dogs with permanently shaved legs where they had had drugs to improve performance, dogs which only ever had their muzzles removed to eat a mush, so that they could cram them in pairs in tiny kennles. The muzzles had worn their noses down and there teeth were rotten Also 9 yr old bitches running on meridiana track in Barcelona, the saddest sight I have ever seen. Both shut down .

I think that if you think racing will never be banned you buy into the negative mindset, I bet little children would still be working in mills and being shoved up chimneys if people still had that mindset.

 

Would some of those dogs have been from the UK ? and would the statistics of those dogs be published anywhere ? just thinking that the numbers of dogs being shipped abroad wouldn't be taken into account in the industries stats, there by making the numbers look less

 

How do dogs actually get into racing ? I was always under the impression they were bred at a kennels and then were either run on or got rid off, but there was mention in an earlier post of an auction and also what sort of age do the dogs start their training ?

 

I'm another one who would like to see an end to the racing industry, dog and horse.

[cycas]

However, with the example of the bulldog - you have brought up a major concern I have about the movement to end racing. Racing is one of the few areas we have left where there is some form of test for the dog's health (There would be no benefit to a greyhound with dodgy hips being bred).

 

You are joking, right?

Dogs with painful corns (probably related to low body fat percentage).

Dog with hearts so large and such oversized blood supply to their muscles that they can only run for a few minutes, and can be reduced to the point of collapse on a warm day.

Dogs that are not taught to run properly, because they cannot run for long, so they are quite capable of breaking their own legs while just frolicking in a field,

Dogs that run into posts and fences so fast that they die.

Dogs with built in self-destruct mechanisms that go off once they are too old to run commercially (bone cancer).

Dogs which tend to be bald, making them even more vulnerable to cuts and bruises.

Dogs with skin so thin that vets sigh at the idea of having to put stitches into the stuff.

Dogs where a significant number have to be kept onlead for their own safety.

Dogs that are routinely given appalling socialisation as pups, so they grow up not even knowing what, say, a terrier or a poodle is, and might well try to eat one rather than work with it.

 

And that's if they were kept in tiptop condition, and they just aren't. They are treated as a disposable resource: break one, dump one, get a new one. I'm not saying that the inbred problems are as bad as some of the poor show dogs, but I really don't think it's correct to say that racing has produced a healthy type of dog. Greyhounds are supposed to be hunting dogs; can you imagine trying to hunt anything with a pack of racing greyhounds?

 

I've got an ex-racer and a whippety lurcher thing, both roughly the same size. The greyhound is the product of generations of pedigree racers, the lurcher is a random stray whose breeding is anyone's guess, yet the lurcher is just so much less stupidly designed than the greyhound for basic things like not collapsing from heat exhaustion. The greyhound makes me go 'who thought this was a good idea???' on a regular basis.

[Terrier]

I don't personally believe that it CAN'T be banned. After our government managed to pass a law banning dogs that are a bit stocky (I refer to BSL) I wouldn't underestimate the chance of legislation being drawn up on a whim that makes things worse.

 

My focus is more whether or not racing SHOULD be banned.

 

Elricc points out that the Greenpark Fox lines are fit for purpose, but I think the point I made earlier has been misunderstood. Breeding dogs that are fit for purpose does not automatically eliminate all problems, but it does reduce them. Breeding for a purpose that demands that the dogs produced are fit and healthy does reduce the chance of certain problems arising.

 

We can all name Greenpark Fox line as a problem with racing, but who can name (for example) the line that's responsible for CHD in labradors, german shepherds, poodles.... etc? You can't because there's too many of them. These breeds are I believe bred mainly for the pet market. The health of those dogs without a job to do has suffered enormously.

 

I don't think that's a coincidence. If there is no requirement for a dog to be healthy - is it surprising that over a few generations their health suffers?

[cycas]

The health of those dogs without a job to do has suffered enormously.

 

It does, however, depend on the job. Most traditional jobs for dogs involve a range of tasks and living integrated with other animals and people. Greyhound racing is, relatively speaking, a very modern innovation, it's only been around since the 1920's, and is so specific and precise an application that I believe it is different to traditional working jobs for dogs, in that it produces a dog that is very highly tailored to one very limited task, and that one task only. I think it's more like some of the modern factory farmed breeds of chicken and cow, produced to do one task to a high level but nothing else.