zico's mum Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 (edited) As has been said this is a situation which could so easily have been avoided - however - the situation exists and this rescue whoever they are now have a problem to resolve, so if anyone has any practical advice or experience to add to the thread then please do so, but any crossing of the line and this thread goes *poof* forever. But if this is continually ignored the thread will vanish and the advice being offered to resolve the situation will cease as well. Edited January 11, 2008 by zico's mum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyM Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 There is still the risk that these dogs may be repeatedly bred from in future, plus the risk to the existing pupplies to consider. The OP in this case is asking for help concerning a very sad and worrying situation that already exists and is not of her making, so I'd have thought information and constructive advice is what's needed here. I was asking because when it was said these dogs are *currently* at risk it implied that that meant *not* from the breeding aspect. I think it's important for people to know if these dogs are in actual physical danger! I'm also already aware of the potential for further breeding thanks, I asked to determine what the "risk" is that is obviously of more concern than breeding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
menage_a_trois Posted January 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 No probs - if I were in a position to give you all the facts, I would. I`ve got involved late in this situation and am trying to help, is all. I`m sure you`ll understand I can`t speculate or do the woulda/coulda/shoulda thing - or give details in what is now a legal matter. I do find it worrying that these contracts or agreements have never, it seems, been tested in law, as the answer to my original question - has there ever been a similar event that has gone to court - seems to be No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redditchlady Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Thanks for clearing that up. I do hope things get sorted out. Kazz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 i am sorry and i don't want to start world war 3 but i can't see why we all sit there saying my paper work would stand up why there are 2 lawyer and a court saying no I'm surprised that any lawyer would venture an opinion on the enforcability of any documentation when the only details they have come from a third party who doesn't know the full facts themself. I certainly don't give advice to people unless I know the full story and I work in the legal world too (but not dealing with contract law so can't and won't advise on something outside my expertise anyway.) I have a friend who is a contracts lawyer but I'm not going to ask her as I don't consider I have enough information for her to say anything other than "It depends...." A court has not said anything about the case. Your OH's magistrate father has. Is he a lawyer? Most magistrates aren't I think. Does he have a sound background in contract law and be up to date with all legal precedents? He may not have come across a case where such a contract was upheld, but that doesn't mean that none exists. The case of the reclaimed labrador mentioned above did not involve breeding but there seem to be some similarities. Is he aware of that case and the fact that the court awarded the dog to the rescue? One of the first things you learn in the law is that very seldom is anything certain. Pam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherlock Bones Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 A long time ago I had this very conversation with Nougatti, who had researched it and who it might be worth pm'ing as she's not here too often these days. The outcome was that it depended whether the documentation used to hand the dogs over is an adoption form/agreement or a contract. In law the two are very different. If you have a contract, it can be broken and can then be taken to court and enforced - much as in the same way you would with purchasing goods. If you have an adoption agreement, it isn't a legal document so you can't go to court over it. It's a finite point of law and needs a legal expert and all rescues should be aware of it's implications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cocoa Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 (edited) I work in the legal world too what do you do ? if you are in this world then could you not help ? I have a friend who is a contracts lawyer but I'm not going to ask her as I don't consider I have enough information for her to say anything other than "It depends...." could she not have a little look at the paper work and see what she thinks it could help no end The case of the reclaimed labrador mentioned above did not involve breeding but there seem to be some similarities. Is he aware of that case and the fact that the court awarded the dog to the rescue i don't see whats the same in anyway could you point them out please? i have taken on a rescue over paper work i can't say i won ( but i got what i wanted ) as it never went to court but i did get a very good look into it all i spend a lot of money trying to under stand it all and i have a great x hubby who i have just spend 5 years in court with over a pre nuptial with a lawyer so i hope he knows his stuff Edited January 11, 2008 by cocoa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherlock Bones Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 I work in the legal world too what do you do ? if you are in this world then could you not help ? Sorry I'm a chartered surveyor - i read contracts every day to see if they are or aren't legal contracts but even then I phone my lawyer and ask them if my opinion is right or not... I could tell you if you had a lease or not but i'm no expert on the purchase of goods act (which I suspect these fall under) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 if you are in this world then could you not help ? No. I recognise the limits of my own expertise and that I don't have anywhere near enough information to ask anyone else to make a pronouncement on the subject. Pam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie No Dots Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 (edited) I once spoke to a large organisation and a solicitor rwith canine legislation exp egarding this and the advice was that you had to have the rescue as the owner and the new owners as the adopter or custodian of the dog. Provided you where the actual owner you had a chance. I have no idea if this has changed (it was a year or two back now) but that was his advice at the time. (not regarding a bitch who had pups) Edited January 11, 2008 by Allie No Dots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EGAR Posted January 12, 2008 Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 I did a good bit of legal research before I drafted my contract (Nouggatti borrowed it from me for her own rescue back then). It states that EGAR remains owner of the dog whereas the adopter is the caretaker in my stead. I had to test it once in court and won. But I am in Ireland so I am not sure that would apply for UK too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackin Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 I had two pups of opposite sex and boy was it hard work as minnie came into season two weeks after frodo done and told he was still fertile. It only takes a second for the deed to be done thats how ended up with my two from a lady whose pedigree bichon mixed with no idea. It may be that these people love their dogs and scared of losing them I know I would be. If done on purpose that is a different case altogether think you should be advising the rehoming of the puppies. Instead of court and heavyhandedness which to be honest will put people off having rescue dogs try the friendly can we help approach. Its does honestly put people off rescue dogs when they think that the rescue can walk in and take their dogs. I know this is necessary in certain circumstances and right but scares people with bichon rescue have been told this several times no thank you will buy a bichon if that is case where rescue still own the dog. Difficult one this one not sure the answer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lainey Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 If the rescue documentation/adoption agreement will not stand up in court as a 'legal' matter- would it not be possible to fight it as a breech of 'moral obligation' as they have failed to look after the dog in the way they agreed to do so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumpole Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 it all depends on the way the contract is worded i too have it on my forms that i remain the dogs legal owner and my contract has stood up in civil court but on ownership grounds, it really does matter what is written. it can in some cases even matter where the signature of new keeper is on the form and if it was witnessed and signed. anything written after the point where the signature is placed cannot be taken as agreed to. as could have been added later. if it has been seen by a contracts lawyer and they do not feel it constitutes a legally sound document then theres not an awful lot you can do, this is civil so can be brought privately by the rescue without a solicitor but if you have been advised that it wont stand up its likely you would lose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted January 15, 2008 Report Share Posted January 15, 2008 Personally I have my doubts that many if not all "adoption agreements" would stand up to scrutiny by a good solicitor / barrister but that said the only case I know of a rescue pursuing recovery of a dog in court (though not over a pregnancy) was won by the rescue - see here for more info http://www.thisishampshire.net/display.var...ng_labrador.php http://www.labrador-lifeline.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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