Laura_E Posted July 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2010 I have never imagined that vets go into veterinary medicine "because they love animals" - for many, I guess, it's just a well-paid career which provides a good salary and a fair bit of status - but I don't suppose veterinary assistants are paid much, so what is their motivation, if they don't do it for the animals? I suppose we like to think that everyone involved in the care of animals is dedicated to their well-being, but you only have to look at some of the horrors uncovered in various rescues/boarding kennels/pet-minding businesses to see that it ain't necessarily so. You get social inadequates working in all kinds of jobs where they have power over those even weaker than they are. I don't believe that all veterinary staff like all animals, any more than I believe that all medical staff like all humans. I agree. I work with people in my job, and I sure as hell don't like all of them! Earlier this year I attended a training day to find out about higher education options for disadvantaged young people and one of the speakers was from the Royal Veterinary College. He was refreshingly honest (not to mention incredibly funny) and openly admitted that 90% of their students are privately educated and many have their career paths decided for them by the schools. I have to say, I do have complete faith in my vet and have got to know her very well in the last few years. She has been the head vet at the practice for a number of years and recently took over full ownership. She is still very young, late 20's-early 30's, but has achieved so much in the time that she has been there. Her boyfriend recently gave up his job as a stock broker to become the practice manager and they live in the flat above the surgery. A lot of veterinary nurses are personal friends of hers, and three of them are actively involved with a local rescue. When Bouncer was ill she preformed a lot of treatments free of charge, and when she came round to put him to sleep she was almost as upset as I was. One of the young people that I work with is also a permanent volunteer at the practice and all of the staff are fantastic with him (he has autism) and he is always ranting about how great they are, bless him. But I think I am very lucky, I know lots of people that have had bad experiences with vets and unfortunately most of them were with Medivet. I haven't actually seen the programme yet as I was working late last night, but judging by some of your comments, I'm not sure I want to now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesB Posted July 23, 2010 Report Share Posted July 23, 2010 I seriously wish I hadn't seen it, I had horrible dreams last night. It brought back all my nagging worries about how Tess was treated in the vet hospital the week before she died, with nurses giving her meds and turning her etc. I'd only just changed to this vet when she was admitted so I don't really 'know' them yet. I wish I'd stayed with my other vet, who was lovely, but had no emergency cover except himself and his partner who would respond on their mobiles and open up the surgery for emergencies. They have no one overnight at the practice so animals would be on their own if admitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mop Posted July 23, 2010 Report Share Posted July 23, 2010 That would depend on the owner and their behaviour. My animals, particularly Az, are generally a lot happier and calmer when I am with them, and I am quite capable of restraining them and getting them into position and holding them still, and I've never met a nurse that I would trust to do that better than me for my own animals. I prefer to have things like blood samples taken in the consulting room in my presence where possible. Yes it does depend on the owner, some of the owners I have seen in waiting room I wouldn't like them helping either, the dogs are getting more and more nervous in the waiting room before they see the vet. The nurses at the vets I go to are reliable, they treat the animals with respect, if the animal is nervous they get someone to help, they don't struggle on their own. I have every confidence in the nurses in the vets I go to, I have got to know them very well over the years and if it wasn't for a nurse last Tuesday, I wouldn't have Ellie now. I don't agree that an animal is necessarily going to be calmer and more manageable if you take them away from their familiar person into a strange place full of weird noises and animals that are in pain to be manhandled by a stranger - particularly if it's a dog that has to be pretty much dragged away or carried to get him to move at all! If the owner is panicking or doesn't know what to do, that's not going to help, but if you can be calm and confident, I think it's fine to be clear with a vet that you would rather be present. Unfortuately not all owners are calm and competent and they do make the animals worse. In my vets animals don't get dragged away, several of my dogs haven't wanted to go into the back so a nurse was called to come into the consulting room instead. Maybe I am lucky with my vets, the animals are not taken were there are others, they are taken to a quiet place if they are willing to go, with no weird noises etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mop Posted July 23, 2010 Report Share Posted July 23, 2010 I only watched a few minutes, as I knew from the ads and the previous posts here what it would be like, how anyone can use them or a big chainstore vet is a mystery. My vets took over the vets at a chainstore last year, they work independently from the chainstore, they were asked to take the practice over, I do know the reason but it isn't common knowledge. Wouldn't you rather go local, where everyone knows the vet. My vet is local, it is also a hospital and gives 24 hour care, the care my dogs have received there has been incredible. The vets, nurses and all staff do love animals and it shows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurel n Hardy Posted July 23, 2010 Report Share Posted July 23, 2010 Alex, I know what you mean, however i didnt mean to paint as broad a picture as that Perhaps I am also one of the lucky ones, of the 2 vets practices in the village I go to the one that is the bigger of the 2, the head vet took over from his father when he retired after 40 years or so. He also lives locally, and his children go to the village school. As this is a small place full of dog owners word would soon get round if they were like this, and his business would fold - period They have overnight facilities with a flat above, and 24 hour emergency call outs. I just think that if everyone who saw that program mentioned it to the vet next time they visit and ask who was their 24 hour emergency cover, a lot of vets may just change if it was medivet, and find another local practice willing to take the overflow of emergencys, or face a huge loss in reputation/income. Its also a good point about children and hospitals, comparing them with dogs/cats etc. Maybe if it ever happens to any of ours, we insist to the vet that we scrub up and sit in on the procedure, if possible... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mop Posted July 23, 2010 Report Share Posted July 23, 2010 I seriously wish I hadn't seen it, I had horrible dreams last night. It brought back all my nagging worries about how Tess was treated in the vet hospital the week before she died, with nurses giving her meds and turning her etc. I'd only just changed to this vet when she was admitted so I don't really 'know' them yet. I wish I'd stayed with my other vet, who was lovely, but had no emergency cover except himself and his partner who would respond on their mobiles and open up the surgery for emergencies. They have no one overnight at the practice so animals would be on their own if admitted. I don't think I could cope if I had left a dog with a strange vet and lost her, I would always wonder if I made the right decision or not but all those that know have had to do this adored their dog and had no choice, all we can do is our best and that does mean leaving them with people we don't know so they can recover. Sometimes we do have to do this if our vets don't do 24 hour care but that doesn't mean that our dogs are not looked after properly, I know from my vets that they get first class care and lots of love and hugs. When Ellie goes to the vets she expects everyone to play with her and they do, she adores going there. She wasn't like that when I first got her but she found that staying at the vets was fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackmagic Posted July 23, 2010 Report Share Posted July 23, 2010 http://www.bva.co.uk/2012.aspx Veterinary associations’ response to BBC Panorama ‘It shouldn’t happen at a vets'’ 22 July 2010 BVA President-Elect responds to Panorama The veterinary professional associations have expressed concern and disappointment at the incidents revealed in the undercover footage in the BBC’s Panorama programme ‘It shouldn’t happen at a vets'’ and are calling on the BBC to provide all of the evidence to the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons (RCVS) for a full investigation. One of the main issues raised by the programme is the lack of support and supervision for younger and less experienced vets and veterinary nurses, as well as other staff who are not qualified (referred to as “trainees†in the programme). Ultimately it is the veterinary surgeon who must take responsibility for the animals in his/her care. Vets are robustly regulated by the RCVS, as revealed in the case of Kfir Segev who was struck off by the RCVS. The programme also highlighted a number of concerning incidents of alleged fraud, dishonesty and bad practice that pet owners and the general public will have found very distressing. The BVA, BSAVA and SPVS cannot condone any bad practice. Some of these incidents featured are clearly unacceptable; others will require further investigation and it is vital that the RCVS is given the evidence to take this forward. The veterinary associations are very concerned that viewers may now have concerns about their own vets. It is vital that the relationship of trust between a client and their vet is maintained. As was made clear in the programme, the vast majority of vets provide a high quality service and have the best interests of their clients and patients at heart. We would advise pet owners to talk to their vet, as well as the rest of the practice team, if they have any concerns. We are advising our members to spend extra time dealing with clients’ questions and concerns following the programme, as well as offering the opportunity to meet the whole veterinary team and see behind the scenes in the practice. Professor Bill Reilly, President of the British Veterinary Association, said: “There will be concern amongst pet owners following the programme, but it is vital to remember that the vast majority of vets enjoy a high level of trust from their clients because they are incredibly hard working and caring. “It is essential that every member of the veterinary team feels supported and well supervised to ensure they are only asked to carry out tasks that they are qualified, trained and competent to do.†Grant Petrie, President of the British Small Animal Veterinary Association, said: “We would urge the profession and public alike to continue reporting issues of concern. The BSAVA believes that the inappropriate actions and breach of trust of a few should not tarnish the true endeavours of the majority of veterinary surgeons who provide a dedicated and professional service.†Jacqui Molyneux, President of the Society of Practising Veterinary Surgeons, said: “SPVS would never condone leaving junior staff to sink or swim. In fact we help run a Final Year Seminar for veterinary students each year where we stress over and over again that students should not take jobs where they are not given adequate support. It is imperative that young vets should have the support of more experienced vets to help when things are not going according to plan.†Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mop Posted July 23, 2010 Report Share Posted July 23, 2010 It occurs to me that surely if you take a small child to hospital, people don't expect to take him away into a separate room to do routine procedures like taking blood, and you'd expect, for example, to be able to sit with him while he had a premed, if he was going in for an operation? To many of us our dogs are our children, but dogs are not children, we can't talk to our dogs and explain what is happening, that really helps when a child is in hospital. I remember taking Merlin in, the vet wanted to take his blood pressure, they had had a lot of emergencies that day and there were 2 in then, the staff was fully stretched so he asking if I would help. The vet had been there for 12 hours and had dealt with several of these emergencies. Merlin being a Greyhound it was difficult to get his bloodpressure, the vet was really patient especially when Merlin wouldn't do what was wanted, he just gently encouraged him like we would. As to getting to know your vet - I dunno. I've got 8 pets at the moment, so I'm in and out regularly, I do know most of the nurses and vets by name, I've met some of their own dogs and my practice has a screen thing in the waiting room that shows pictures of all the staff with their names and a bit of info about their pets. Some of them have a fairly good pet-side manner. But I certainly don't feel that I know them well enough to trust unconditionally : I've never seen most of them outside of work, or discussed anything with them beyond animal care, so really I have nothing to base my trust on, other than their qualifications and apparent competence so far. When I go I don't just talk about my dogs, we talk about all sorts including the World Cup, one of the vets is Spanish and wanted Spain to win, we talked football for some time. I got to know some of the nurses really well when Merlin and Gracie were going to hydro, it took Merlin 8 sessions before he felt safe enough not to need support, the nurse really did support his body in the tank, it wasn't easy for her either, in fact she was always exhausted afterwards. I would offer to help but she always refused, she didn't trust owners to support the dogs properly. Most people have fewer pets than me and probably don't need to take them in as often. I am not sure how they are supposed to get to know their vets well, given that probably most pet owners see their vet for maybe 20 minutes a year - particularly when to do anything at all fiddly, the vet takes the animal away into a different room, so you never see them doing much more than say, checking teeth. I was always there when Joe had a scan, Joe had brain damage and was frightened of anything new especially vets thanks to the previous vets I had. The vet doing the scans Joe took to right away, never showed any signs of stress with him and would just stand there without anyone holding him while he was scanned. When my dog trusts a vet like that, especially a dog like Joe, then so do I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackmagic Posted July 23, 2010 Report Share Posted July 23, 2010 http://www.rcvs.org.uk/Templates/Internal.asp?NodeID=7099280 RCVS: concerned about Panorama allegations and will investigate 22 July 2010 Image: Jeremy Vine outside Belgravia House earlier this year We are concerned about allegations raised by tonight’s Panorama programme, and would like to reassure the public that we will investigate the claims made, says veterinary regulatory body, the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, commenting on ‘It Shouldn’t Happen at a Vet’s’ (BBC 1, 9pm 22 July). “It would be impossible to watch such a programme and not feel concern for the animals featured or sympathy towards their owners, and indeed any member of the public or profession who may have been distressed by what they have seen,†says RCVS President Peter Jinman. The programme has been in the pipeline for some time. The College first met with Panorama over a year ago but, as has been acknowledged in the programme, tonight’s airing was our first opportunity to see it. However, one of the veterinary surgeons featured in the programme – Kfir Segev – was under RCVS investigation well before the Panorama interest began. He has since been ‘struck off’ the RCVS Register for the fraudulent recommendation of unnecessary treatments, meaning he is no longer able to practise as a veterinary surgeon. “The veterinary profession has a robust regulatory system and allegations have been made which deserve full investigation,†says Mr Jinman. “The BBC has given assurances that they will provide us with the information we need and we will immediately ask for their co-operation. It would be inappropriate to prejudge the outcome of our investigations by commenting on any specific aspects of the programme at this stage.†The programme covered many issues, with allegations ranging from inappropriate delegation to unqualified staff members, through to fraud. The RCVS regulates veterinary surgeons and considers charges of serious professional misconduct, which might include, and have in fact included, inappropriate delegation to support staff, such as veterinary nursing assistants. We have also developed non-statutory systems for the regulation of registered veterinary nurses and the maintenance of practice standards. Some of the allegations made in the programme were of serious offences and the BBC ought to pass details of those to the relevant authorities, such as the police or Trading Standards. The RCVS has a good track record of working with such authorities. What can you do? While we understand that the majority of animal owners have great confidence in their veterinary surgeon, where there are concerns, we would encourage people to contact the RCVS. Any veterinary surgeon or veterinary nurse who witnesses behaviour that they believe falls below the high standards expected of the profession is encouraged to report this to us. A number of complaints received by the College each year are from veterinary surgeons, veterinary nurses and other members of practice staff. “We appreciate that ‘whistleblowing’ may not be an easy choice, but belonging to a profession brings responsibilities as well as rights, and it is up to every member to ensure that high educational, ethical and clinical standards are maintained,†says Mr Jinman. Guidance on whistleblowing is available on RCVSonline and further sources of support are available at www.vetlife.org.uk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackmagic Posted July 23, 2010 Report Share Posted July 23, 2010 Medivet I see they have removed the video of Yogi's treatment where they had inserted their own comments against the portrayal by Panorama. It seems they have had second thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycas Posted July 23, 2010 Report Share Posted July 23, 2010 To many of us our dogs are our children, but dogs are not children, we can't talk to our dogs and explain what is happening, that really helps when a child is in hospital. Exactly my point : you can't tell a dog that you'll be back in half an hour to collect him, or that he only has to put up with this for another day then it will all be better. From the dog's point of view, if you walk away from him in the vet, you've left him in the scary place, much more so than a child. Yet, we expect dogs to cope with being trotted out of sight with a stranger because it's 'inconvenient' for the vet to have the owner looking on? That just doesn't make sense! If an owner can't keep cool and appear calm and confident for the animal's sake, then really all they can do is hand over and hope to high heaven that it will all be OK: and I've certainly seen some gormless owners so can understand that a vet might feel that way. But if you *can* keep it together and be there, I believe that is much better for the animal, just as it would be for a child, and that it is reasonable to calmly and firmly express your preference to the people who you are paying to do their job. I was always there when Joe had a scan, Joe had brain damage and was frightened of anything new especially vets thanks to the previous vets I had. The vet doing the scans Joe took to right away, never showed any signs of stress with him and would just stand there without anyone holding him while he was scanned. When my dog trusts a vet like that, especially a dog like Joe, then so do I. It's great when a dog takes to a vet like that isn't it? So much easier! What I worry about though, is that it's not typical to have loads of pets, including fosters, broken old dogs, etc etc - so you get a chance to see your vet in action in all sorts of situations. For most pet owners, they have one or maybe two animals, which get a checkup once a year, and may not need to visit a vet at all otherwise, even if the owner is very careful and caring - until something goes catastrophically wrong. And as you rightly say, when something does go wrong like that, they very likely panic, so their ability to check things out is pretty limited. I don't see how these people, who are the vast majority of pet owners, are supposed to get to know their vet, they have to go on trust, they have no option. (I'm very unconvinced that animals can always tell if a human being is trustworthy, though. I can't, so it seems unlikely to me that they can. Az in particular has rotten judgement: he's scared of all sorts of people. When he decides to take a frit at someone that I've known for 20 years and would happily trust with my life, I am pretty sure he's just being a doofus! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenOldie Posted July 23, 2010 Report Share Posted July 23, 2010 Many years ago my daughter and her partner were fostering for the RSPCA and took in a young GSD pup which had been dumped at a local vets with old healed fractures, an inch wide raw strip round his neck where he had been tied up and a great fear of anyone smelling of alcohol. He was treated by a vet designated by the RSPCA (nothing to do with Medivet) and they were told that the best thing for him was to put him down as he was growling at the nurses and the vet. He was also in considerable pain, and my daughter, who is a nurse, repeatedly asked for more tests but was refused. The vet actually said to her that he thought she wanted there to be something wrong with him.In the end, in deparation, she asked my vet if he could give a second opinion. Barney was taken in and crated and when surgery finished the crate was left open and he was able to come out when he was ready, accept treats and games and his full range of movement was observed without any stress. X-rays showed a significant bone deficiency which was treatable but on the verge of crippling him.He remained in their care for over 11 years with their other 3 dogs and was around when the children arrived as he was approaching old age. My vet wrote a letter of complaint to the RSPCA about the lack of proper care and diagnosis ; the RSPCA offered to take him into kennels so he could be treated but by then all trust was gone and my daughter adopted him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mop Posted July 23, 2010 Report Share Posted July 23, 2010 (edited) Exactly my point : you can't tell a dog that you'll be back in half an hour to collect him, or that he only has to put up with this for another day then it will all be better. From the dog's point of view, if you walk away from him in the vet, you've left him in the scary place, much more so than a child. Yet, we expect dogs to cope with being trotted out of sight with a stranger because it's 'inconvenient' for the vet to have the owner looking on? That just doesn't make sense! I have just got back from taking Ellie for a check-up, as soon as she saw Stuart the vet she launched herself at him, he quickly got us into a consulting room were Ellie launched herself at him again, they were both rolling round the floor playing, it seems that most of the staff play with Ellie like this. No wonder she gets so excited when she realises she is going to the vets. Thankfully my vets are not scary, all my dogs are happy to go there. It's great when a dog takes to a vet like that isn't it? So much easier! What I worry about though, is that it's not typical to have loads of pets, including fosters, broken old dogs, etc etc - so you get a chance to see your vet in action in all sorts of situations. For most pet owners, they have one or maybe two animals, which get a checkup once a year, and may not need to visit a vet at all otherwise, even if the owner is very careful and caring - until something goes catastrophically wrong. And as you rightly say, when something does go wrong like that, they very likely panic, so their ability to check things out is pretty limited. I don't see how these people, who are the vast majority of pet owners, are supposed to get to know their vet, they have to go on trust, they have no option. Usually there are people in the waiting room to talk to, you can get a lot of information from them about the way the vets work. My vets have just done up the main surgery, they did discuss having cameras for people waiting to see what is going on in the back. This was quite popular until someone asked what would happen if an animal collapsed and it was shown in the waiting room. Ellie collapsed 3 times before they operated, if I had been in the waiting room and seen that I would be in a terrible state. They decided that it could be too upsetting for the people in the waiting room but they will show owners round the back if they ask. (I'm very unconvinced that animals can always tell if a human being is trustworthy, though. I can't, so it seems unlikely to me that they can. Az in particular has rotten judgement: he's scared of all sorts of people. When he decides to take a frit at someone that I've known for 20 years and would happily trust with my life, I am pretty sure he's just being a doofus! This is a case of know your dog, your dog isn't good at this, other dogs are. Edited July 23, 2010 by Mrs Mop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happylittlegreensquirrel Posted July 25, 2010 Report Share Posted July 25, 2010 I missed this being away is it on iplayer ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karen Posted July 25, 2010 Report Share Posted July 25, 2010 iplayer Until thursday by the look of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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