Need Some Advice For Sparks

[BillyMalc]

We've had 3 incidents within the last week and a bit, where Sparky flew at and expressed agressive behaviour towards other dogs - and one bloke this afternoon - and while the first incident with the JRT (I posted about that in Doggie Chat) was pretty much the JRT owner's fault, the other two incidents were due to me not being on the ball: yesterday I had not noticed that a couple with a collie had walked up quite close behind us, and when I noticed I just about put Sparks in a 'sit', but he broke that and had a go at the collie. Today they were all off lead, and Mal had completely disappeared in the bushes, so I went to retrieve him from there - as he is prety much deaf these days. My fault for letting him off lead where I did, I should have known better! Sparks followed me into the bushes, but turned round ahead of me and I was too busy getting Mal back on track to notice that he had got back on the path. Next thing I know is a shout and a lot of barking: Sparky having a go at a bloke and his westie, and Kiera joining in for the fun of it The guy understandably was not impressed and I don't blame him. The lot went back on lead, and took turns, very controlled, in going off lead and I did lots and lots of recall training - which went fine. Got them sitting down when there were other dogs passing, and Sparks keeps growling and wanting to 'go', but obviously he's not given the opportunity.

 

Long story, but the point of this is that I'm not at all sure that going to training is changing any of that kind of behaviour in Sparks, as he hardly ever displays any of that during class - and when he does it's usually because it's a dog coming very close to him in a small enclosed space. More importantly, Sparks spends an awful lot of time focusing on where his "best friends in the whole wide world", my neighboour Mike and his dog Merlin, are. I've been so enthusiastic in describing my trainer's class, that they have joined as well, but whereas Merlin is devoted to Mike and his toy, Sparky is devoted to them!

It really takes a long time for Sparks to focus on me, and I notice that it stresses me out quite a bit, and I'm as a result focusing on the pair of them as well, trying to stay away from them and getting Spark's attention

 

There is another class on Thursday, but that's when Kiera's agility training is, plus I couldn't physically make it there on time due to the distance and work. I've already tried asking my neighbour, but he doesn't want to go on the other evening

 

Thing is, I've been taking Sparks out on his own to the park and done training with him there, like sitting and watching kids playing basketball and running about, to get him more used to that as well, and he did really well with that. Now rather than taking him to training I could take him out on his own to places where we meet lots of off lead dogs and do training with him there (is almmost impossible to do with 3 dogs, one of who is pretty much deaf! ).

On the other hand, I feel I don't know near enough about training, so would I deny Sparks a 'proper' training by training him on my own? :unsure:

Help!

[K9Fran]

I think you need to decide what it is you want Sparks to learn, and how you can best acheive that.

 

It may be that attending training classes is working against you because he is concentrating on where his best friend is (and this will be increasing his stress levels as well as yours), in which case you may actually be better off training alone.

[Mrs B]

Quick suggestion – which is something someone pointed out to me ages ago.

 

If you ask Sparks to “sit†in a stressy situation, he’s actually not being given the opportunity to do what he wants. By that, I don’t mean he should be allowed to have a go at other dogs, (obviously) but if he’s free to react on lead, he can show his own body language by turning, lying down, etc, etc. If he’s in an enforced “sit†he can’t do that. So, you might need to walk or stand far enough away from the other dog, that there can’t be contact, and try to keep the lead loose (if he’ll let you) so that again he’s free to show the body language he wants.

 

If you have a good trainer, they should be able to help you – and they should be someone who you can talk to about the problems you are having outside class, and give you some help and advice. Do you feel you are getting that where you are going?

 

Sorry, I need to dash off now, but I’m sure some more knowledgeable folks will be along to comment here.

[purple_mog]

Definitely suggest you get hold of Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt - the book and trainer I was bimbling on about when we met up - she's really great and full of fantastic ideas.

 

Definitely agree with Mrs B's comments.

 

You need to be able to work with him at his pace and comfort distance, CU has loads of suggestions you can adapt and use in a class situation and remember that the more excited/stressed he is the more likely he is to react - adrenaline is adrenaline whether its from a fun thing or a nasty thing, and he's clearly a dog with an overactive nervous system just now

 

Definitely try Karen Overall's Relaxation Protocol with him too (described in the CU book) and didn't I see you go to a TTouch workshop with Mal, most practitioners will do workshops on reactive/nervy dogs too which can make a massive difference in terms of helping you to have better coping strategies.

 

Anyway, I could go on and on for ages as its a real love of mine, but do shout if you want to have a natter sometime! We're trying to set up some CU based classes in Leeds/York area but perhaps thinking about a day workshop later in the summer?

 

to all from Finn (the original reactive doglet) and Farah (too perfectionist for her own good)

[BillyMalc]

Definitely suggest you get hold of Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt - the book and trainer I was bimbling on about when we met up - she's really great and full of fantastic ideas.

 

That book should be in the post as we speak - ordered it on Sunday

 

I think I've decided over the course of today that I will try and give "home schooling" a shot; I'm not entirely sure how much use going to training classes has for us at the moment. Sure Sparks managed his Bronze, but that hasn't stopped those incidents from happening, and I do feel that his obsession with Mike and Merlin and my frustration at having a dog pulling all over the place to get to them does not weigh up against the fact that he will now sit by a gate and doesn't object to having his teeth looked at!

 

I also started training with the intention of strengthening our bond by doing something together (I know taking Kiera to agility is the best thing I've ever done for our relationship - wish I'd done that sooner! ). However, going to the same training class as his bestest mates is prolly less than ideal (I do want to add however, that his bestest mates started to come along to "my" class and insist on staying put! ). Unfortunately good clubs that have spaces available are very hard to find round here, so it's not as if I can just change clubs

 

Anyway, agility would be waaaay to exciting for Sparks, and he loves running with his nose to the ground, so I'll be looking into trying to teach him some scent work. Does Lesley McDevitt's book have anything on that? Because I've nevr done anything like it and I really could do with a trainer, but I can't see that happening

 

Please keep any advice coming, it's much appreciated!

[safneo]

Billy, Sparks sounds really like Neo in his ways. I found though he would work at training classes it was stressing him too much. Also, training in a class enviroment is very different to training outside in normal day to day life and thats what Sparks needs to learn to deal with.

 

I know what you mean about the over-excitement too. Neo loved agility and was really good at it but his adrenaline levels went through the roof and that sent him off trying to attack everything in sight!

 

Neo also loves nosework but I only play at it with him, just chucking his ball in the long grass for him to find, but would love to do some proper tracking work with him. Have you tried ttouch with Sparks? I know you did it with Mal. Try doing some ear slides when he gets hyper and see if that chills him out. Also, try singing to yourself when you think you may be getting tense as it helps to relax you and makes you breathe.

 

Maybe we can compare notes on Sunday? I too have Control Unleashed but havent read it yet. Its one of the many that I have to find the time for.

 

Edited to add, I dont know if its yours/his thing but I am trying to find a HWTM class locally with a view to taking Saffy to learn to do it, but so that I can do it with Neo. It will give him work to do that we can keep low key but focuses on me.

Edited March 17, 2009 by safneo

[BillyMalc]

I've done a ttouch workshop with Mal a few months ago, but it doesn't seem to be much appreciated by any of my rabble: Mal just turns on his back for a tummy rub, which makes him cough, Kiera pushs me away and makes it clear that, if I have to touch her please can I scratch her arm pits (she can't reach them herself, I know! ), and all Sparks does -especially when I do ear slides!) is tense up, look extremely worried and turn his head away with his ears flat! I don't think they like it

 

Sparks has been taught to "fight" when people where "dancing" around (eg. sparring), so while I'd like to try HTM - try and find a class first! - I think it'll make him jump up and grab my arms again, got at least one top with a hole in it from when that happened He's got sooo many bad habits to get rid of!

 

I use my lunch breaks at work to read dog books, today I might try and devise a training programme for me and Sparks, with things I want to work on. Let's compare notes on Sunday Andrea!

[blackmagic]

Would you be able to have maybe one or two one2one sessions with a trainer to set you on the right path?

 

I don't know if you do clicker training but Kay Lawrence runs lots of workshops and has e-learning courses.

 

I don't know if any cover what you need but details are on her website

 

http://www.learningaboutdogs.com/

 

http://www.learningaboutdogs.com/acatalog/elads.html

[one.eyed.dog]

I know I keep banging on about Jim Greenwood but, he will be able to tell you why Sparks is doing it in the 1st place.

 

With Lottie it is plain and simple bullying.

 

Email him and see what he suggests.

[BillyMalc]

Would you be able to have maybe one or two one2one sessions with a trainer to set you on the right path?

 

I don't know if you do clicker training but Kay Lawrence runs lots of workshops and has e-learning courses.

 

I don't know if any cover what you need but details are on her website

 

http://www.learningaboutdogs.com/

 

http://www.learningaboutdogs.com/acatalog/elads.html

 

I started off with a 1-2-1 session with this trainer, and she even brought 2 of her own 'stooge' dogs out to see what Sparks would be like. As it happened these dogs did nothing for him, so no "problem behaviour" was displayed - bit like when you go to the doctor with a cough, and once you're there you can't cough for love nor money!

 

I do a bit of clickr training with him, but I am finding it a bit fiddly outside, what with lead and treats and what have ya. Will have a look at the website though, thanks!

 

 

I know I keep banging on about Jim Greenwood but, he will be able to tell you why Sparks is doing it in the 1st place.

 

With Lottie it is plain and simple bullying.

 

Email him and see what he suggests.

 

I know you'd bring up Jim Greenwood, and I've already looked at his site thanks

 

It definitely is bullying on Sparky's part, but also I think that he is a bit "challenged", shall we say, with his social skills, bless him He's also pretty smart, incredibly noise sensitive and excitable, and a worrier. Great combo!

 

This evening I walked Sparks on his own and did a lot of heelwork with him around situations that are challenging for him, like kids playing basket ball and down a stretch on our estate with lots of commuters, and he was pretty good! He had the start of a growl at a woman who I actually thought was a bit weird as well, but we 'heeled' around her with a bit of a wide berth and he was fine.

 

I definitely need to take him out on his own more, which is a bit of a challenge for me, in terms of making sure that Mal and Kiera also get their needs re exercise and attention met. Normally, when it's nice weather, I'd like to take them all out to the nature reserve and let them all off to have a good run and play - they're cooped up inside all day! (well, aside from neighbour popping in at lunch time to walk them) I guess I'll have to be a lot more careful where I let Sparks off and use every minute that he can't be let off to do some training.

 

'Control Unleashed' has arrived today, and I'm well excited about reading that!

 

Thanks a lot for all your feedback and suggestions, and by all means keep em coming - I really really appreciate it! :flowers:

[safneo]

but also I think that he is a bit "challenged", shall we say, with his social skills, bless him He's also pretty smart, incredibly noise sensitive and excitable, and a worrier. Great combo!

 

Where have I heard this desciption before?

[purple_mog]

just a quickie to say that its really sounds as though you and your guys would benefit from doing a 1-2-1 on the ttouch as its important to do little and often, start with the simplest non-threatening touches etc and I found 1-2-1's way more use than a group setting. Also the groundwork and wraps could be really helpful

[BillyMalc]

just a quickie to say that its really sounds as though you and your guys would benefit from doing a 1-2-1 on the ttouch as its important to do little and often, start with the simplest non-threatening touches etc and I found 1-2-1's way more use than a group setting. Also the groundwork and wraps could be really helpful

 

 

Hmmm, might give that practicioner a call in that case! When we did ttouch with Mal she had wraps for sale as well, and I bought one for Sparks. I've tried putting it on a couple of times but he then appeared to be frozen in fear, so I've not tried it again. Now then, seeing as I can spend my money only once, what would it be first: ttouch session or a nice harness for the young man?

 

We've just come back from the park, where I tried clicking and treating him for every time he looked at a child or a ball being shot against a metal fence. It's gorgeous weather here, so there was loads going on! The "clicking for looking" really seemed to work - even though I have to read that part of the book again, as I'm not entirely sure that I did it right - there was a whole lot less panting and pulling and looking distressed. Just wished I'd had more treats, as I'd just ran out when other dogs came onto the park as well. Oh well, try again tomorrow

[purple_mog]

Hey there - I would personally go for the session first and get harness later, think about investing in a double ended lead though and practitioner will show you how to use properly, I also have some pics somewhere of me and Finn!

 

C&T for looking - check the book again but some quick thoughts 1) do very short sessions (like 10 seconds) then back away (release of pressure) to a more distant spot, then try again. Panting/pulling etc = over threshold meaning you are tooo close find out what the critical distances are for staying calm.

2) the look at that game is to encourage the dog to essentially learn that "look at the scary XXX" is just another clicker game, which reframes the whole experience for both of you!

 

There is a yahoo group on using CU with loads of really great posts and info. No longer currently active but you should be able to use it to browse through?

 

I would absolutely start with matwork, relaxation on cue and the relaxation protocol - all of which you start inside. I know its tricky with having more than one dog and trying to meet all their needs, but Sparks will be just fine with fewer walks and perhaps its an idea to keep on lead unless you are sure you can control/manage the situation - sort of giving things less opportunity to 'go wrong' though I hate the word wrong!

 

I spent a lot of time doing what Leslie calls awareness walks (on leash), and also working on a couple of cues, for us:

*come bye* means I expect you to walk nicely beside me

*close touch* means proper heelwork

*go sniff* means you are free to potter to the end of the leash but no pulling or dragging me around

 

the combination meant that even on a walk where I wasn't 100% sure about letting Finn off, we could still have a varied experience, and using go sniff acts as a great premack reward while also encouraging calm behaviour??

 

Anyway - too much rambling! Will leave you guys in peace for a bit now

[BillyMalc]

Weeeell, we went on the Waseley walk yesterday, and besides one "handbag" incident, of which Iwas actually able to call Sparks off with a whistle, he was a little angel! Turning round to watch him sat next to this girl, totally relaxed while having a fuss made my heart stop, and my face smile

I've just come off the phone to the TTouch practicioner I saw with Mal a few months ago, and we're booked in at 11 April for a 1-2-1

Training this afternoon with Sparks was great, I might slowly but surely be getting the hang of this "look at that" game. Sparks was definitely a lot less on "red alert" while we were stood across the pasth from a group of noisy kids playing at the skate park (lots of half pipes for kids to climb on, which make them very tall! ). On the way back we were followed by one of the local latch key dogs and a very dominant, unfriendly male staff, held on a short chain by a very "hard" looking teenager. Sparks kept looking back while we kept walking, but he kept getting treats, and once it was possible we moved to the side to let them pass. While Sparks was at the end of his lead, he didn't go mental at the other dogs, so got treated for that as well. I *think* we might be making a teensy bit of progress!

 

I understand what you're all saying about moving Sparks away from a situation, but most incidents happen, unfortunately, when I have the 3 of them with me, and often on a path, so very little space to let Sparks back track into his comfort zone or express any other behaviour, without hanging from the other dog's neck I ask both Sparks and Kiera to sit, in order to have more control over them, but I'm now asking them to 'look at that', and I'm clicking away for treats. It seems to be an improvement to the old 'sit and watch me' trick - am I kind of getting it right?