greyhound pal Posted August 5, 2008 Report Share Posted August 5, 2008 One thing leaps off the page... Sport: an activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively. How can that not apply to greyhound racing? How is the term "sport" defined north of the border? Because (and I always snort at this) to be defined as a "sport", there has to be a human involved and unlike horse racing there is no humans involved in the actual activity of sport - seriously! Thats why it doesn't come under any "sport" heading nationally - for example the Sports, Arts And Culture department of the Government doesn't recognise it therefore it needs to come under Rural Affairs. Next thing: - If you want to ban the breeding, training and racing of greyhounds for sport, but greyhound racing isn't a sport - what exactly are you trying to ban? I might have guessed that would be your next question Well this is where its word-games. Because the government dont' define it as a "sport" but everyone else does - SSPCA, Racing industry etc, it wouldn't ever be banned as a 'sporting activity' but as an animal welfare issue instead - rather "animals used in entertainment" would be the correct terminology. But to the majority of the public, its a 'sport' and its the general public we reach out to with the campaign. And its easier to use than bannign greyhound racing as a form of entertainment. However elsewhere we'd refer to it as animals used for entertainment - not in hobbies with dogs, but the same classification as the likes of circus etc. I’d be interested to see that. Oh god - was scared you'd say that! Will dig it out but its deep in my *a-hem* 'filing system' (think 6 foot by 5 foot room covered in paperwork in boxes in no order!) so give me a few days or so! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mop Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 Terrier (Mrs Mop @ Aug 5 2008, 06:12 PM) Many good breeders breed to improve their breed, whether that is for performance or looks, they are improving the health problems in their breed. They also try to breed to the breed standard. Why should this be banned along with racing? I never worried that conformation wouldn’t be spared within this campaign – it cannot be defined as a sport. Terrier (Mrs Mop @ Aug 5 2008, 06:12 PM) There are many reasons why a good breeder lets their pups go as pet dogs, they breed to the breed standard and that also includes the temperament. Different types of dogs suite different people, some line dogs with lots of energy because they have very active lifesyles, others may have problems so they are not very active, there is a breed of dog to suit everyone at the moment so I can't understand what you are saying here. I think that conformation has an important role to play in the future of dog ownership. However, it is not without its bad apples either. Nor is it without problems in and of itself. One criticism often directed at conformation is that the focus is placed solely on the look of the dog. That conformation breeders can understand and quote the breed standards to an astonishing degree, but will often miss the reason why those standards were put there in the first place. Many breeders also breed for the dogs to do the job they were intended for as well as confirmation. I have a friend who used to breed and show Welshies, their dogs not only had much improved hip scores over the generations of dogs, but some also worked as well as showed. More would have worked if they had the time to train them. When she was in Labs, many of the pups she bred went to working homes as well, also to search and rescue. Many people are more away of the way that some breeds have gone and are asking for dogs that are fit, healthy and can do the job they were intended doing. I would love to see Greyhound racing banned, but Greyhounds have been bred to run but there are other ways that they can run, it doesn't have to be on a race track. There is a lot if in breeding with Greyhounds as well as show dogs, mine has both Sandman and I'm Slippy several times in his pedigree and his dad is still at stud. Last time I looked his dad had nearly 2,000 offspring. Greyhound breeding is no better than some breeds that are bred solely for show. This isn't helping the Greyhounds, this will also weaken them for the job they were bred to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrier Posted August 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 Because (and I always snort at this) to be defined as a "sport", there has to be a human involved and unlike horse racing there is no humans involved in the actual activity of sport - seriously! Thats why it doesn't come under any "sport" heading nationally - for example the Sports, Arts And Culture department of the Government doesn't recognise it therefore it needs to come under Rural Affairs. Thank god I'm from England, where everything makes sense! I might have guessed that would be your next question Well this is where its word-games. Because the government dont' define it as a "sport" but everyone else does - SSPCA, Racing industry etc, it wouldn't ever be banned as a 'sporting activity' but as an animal welfare issue instead - rather "animals used in entertainment" would be the correct terminology. But to the majority of the public, its a 'sport' and its the general public we reach out to with the campaign. And its easier to use than bannign greyhound racing as a form of entertainment. However elsewhere we'd refer to it as animals used for entertainment - not in hobbies with dogs, but the same classification as the likes of circus etc. Thank you. Now my brain is in a knot. It may take some time to untie it.... Oh god - was scared you'd say that! Will dig it out but its deep in my *a-hem* 'filing system' (think 6 foot by 5 foot room covered in paperwork in boxes in no order!) so give me a few days or so! Sounds like my filing system! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrier Posted August 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 Many breeders also breed for the dogs to do the job they were intended for as well as confirmation. I have a friend who used to breed and show Welshies, their dogs not only had much improved hip scores over the generations of dogs, but some also worked as well as showed. More would have worked if they had the time to train them. When she was in Labs, many of the pups she bred went to working homes as well, also to search and rescue. Many people are more away of the way that some breeds have gone and are asking for dogs that are fit, healthy and can do the job they were intended doing. I'm very much in favour of the type of breeder you describe. Those who compete in and out of the ring with their dogs are exactly the ones who I would place the MOST hope with regards the future of our dogs. I would love to see Greyhound racing banned, but Greyhounds have been bred to run but there are other ways that they can run, it doesn't have to be on a race track. There is a lot if in breeding with Greyhounds as well as show dogs, mine has both Sandman and I'm Slippy several times in his pedigree and his dad is still at stud. Last time I looked his dad had nearly 2,000 offspring. Greyhound breeding is no better than some breeds that are bred solely for show. This isn't helping the Greyhounds, this will also weaken them for the job they were bred to do. In-breeding / line breeding: I know so little about genetics that I cannot comment (believe me - I've tried! ). My main concern was that those "other ways" would be banned along with racing. That may or may not be the case now - I await greyhound pal's document. You mention that racing has weakened them for the job they were meant to do, but the job they were originally bred to do is now illegal. I still have a few concerns (although I have a few less since the start of this debate!) about the situation south of the border, but it's possible that the document might send me on an new train of thought... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
border collie Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 (edited) posted too soon Edited August 6, 2008 by border collie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mop Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 Very few Greyhounds hunt, they are normally crossed with other breeds for that, these days Greyhounds are bred to race or show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycas Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 You mention that racing has weakened them for the job they were meant to do, but the job they were originally bred to do is now illegal. It is, but that's not a a reason to keep breeding them for racing, is it? Racing has made a breed of dog that is only good at one thing and is handicapped in other ways, in exactly the same way that breeding for conformation only does. Dogs bred to a specific shape often cannot do the tasks that that breed was originally designed for: exactly the same applies to racing greyhounds, which are mostly too fragile, lacking the stamina or agility for their original task. Dogs should be bred to be able to live comfortably within human society and perform a range of roles, not to do one thing only, and nothing else. Whether that one thing is to look pretty or run fast, it's still an inappropriate narrowing of focus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greyhound pal Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 My main concern was that those "other ways" would be banned along with racing. That may or may not be the case now - I await greyhound pal's document. I've maybe misled you as to what this said - its one paragraph only if I remember and it really just says that the government believe greyhound racing needs additional legislation which would become secondary legislation. IT doesn't go into any detail at all however if you want it in detail, the results of the consutation document that led to this decision is on the Scottish Government website - you would be looking for the animal health and welfare (scotland) act Although I'm beginning to doubt my memory because I've seen some document about the Greyhound (Scotland) Act but I've a feeling this was something that they sent out to relevant groups and bodies. Will look over weekend because I'm really wondering now (and will curse you the whole way!) Greyhound racing may already breach this by the looks of this new guidance thats due out soon - woudl be mentally impossible for me to think tonight so will coem back when I'm a wee bit less sleepy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrier Posted August 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 (edited) It is, but that's not a a reason to keep breeding them for racing, is it? Racing has made a breed of dog that is only good at one thing and is handicapped in other ways, in exactly the same way that breeding for conformation only does. Dogs bred to a specific shape often cannot do the tasks that that breed was originally designed for: exactly the same applies to racing greyhounds, which are mostly too fragile, lacking the stamina or agility for their original task. Dogs should be bred to be able to live comfortably within human society and perform a range of roles, not to do one thing only, and nothing else. Whether that one thing is to look pretty or run fast, it's still an inappropriate narrowing of focus. Racing has made a breed of dog that is very good at that one thing (ie running after a mechanical hare), but I dispute that it's ONLY good at that. Greyhounds make superb pets as well as racers. What more do you want them to do? You say that "dogs should be bred to be able to live comfortably within human society and perform a range of roles, not to do one thing only, and nothing else". Greyhounds live very comfortably within human society. I know of few dogs (of any breed) that can't, but even if that's the case, that probably has more to do with a lack of socialisation and training, than bad breeding doesn't it? You make a point about an inappropriate narrowing of focus. I see your point, but I believe that even a narrow focus is better than none at all. (and will curse you the whole way!) If I couldn't stand being cursed, I wouldn't have got married. Edited August 11, 2008 by Terrier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrier Posted August 13, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2008 Although I trust our government (and indeed pretty much all professional politicians) about as far as I can throw them, I think it is a little unfair to say that they think BSL is a good idea. http://www.rykat.org/forums/index.php?show...mp;#entry720450 Read Jonathan Shaw's points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrier Posted August 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2008 http://www.rykat.org/forums/index.php?show...mp;#entry720450 Read Jonathan Shaw's points. http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2008-06-12a.496.0 Better link than the one I posted earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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