crazyspaniels Posted April 5, 2008 Report Share Posted April 5, 2008 Right, long story, but basically... puppy bites child, owners take pup to vet and want PTS, vet offers to find rescue place over weekend,vet finds place, dog goes to rescue. Vet was mega busy and neglected to get owners to sign over the dog! Dog is rehomed Owners phone and want dog back, rescue say no. Owners call police and police contact rescue to say its theft and that a case will be made for the procurator fiscal (scotland) who will decide about prosecuting for theft unless rescue say where dog is. Rescue refuses to give up dog as its not in the dogs best interests. so if the owners did not ask for the dog back within 7 days of dropping it off at the vet does that mean that they have no legal claim to the dog? anyone any ideas about this one as its gonna get messy??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boosboss Posted April 5, 2008 Report Share Posted April 5, 2008 (edited) IIRC As the owners surrendered the dog to the vet, it's not theft, it's contract. However, ownership is the key! If the owners can prove they own the dog, they can then take the rescue to court for return of the dog, but it is a civil matter. The law should fall on the side of the owner as the dog will be viewed as a possession. This can take several months and there's no way of knowing the final outcome. The judge may decide to set a precedent, but the owners would probably have cause for appeal. Also it could cost a lot in legal fees, but the owners may decide that it's too much hassle and give up any way. If I were the rescue. I'd hold out for as long as possible, let the police know that they're wasting thier time with the PF as they will return the dog on order of the court and therefore cannot be considered legally as theft. Edited April 5, 2008 by boosboss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumpole Posted April 5, 2008 Report Share Posted April 5, 2008 did the owners sign the consent form for pts they usually do that before going in if so then it may help the rescue establish that the dog was unwanted and agree with boos boss above wanna job joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nettie Posted April 5, 2008 Report Share Posted April 5, 2008 Heck if the vet had gone ahead with pts as initially requested it would have been a bit late to be asking for the pup back! Dimwits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted April 5, 2008 Report Share Posted April 5, 2008 Two stories I can think of which whilst in different circumstannces might I think be worth considering There was a dog which Dog Lost managed to get returned to the owner after being rehomed by a rescue - can't remember the details but Sherlock Bones will perhaps be able to tell you There was a dog locally which was taken to a vets after some kids untied her when owners son left the dog tied up outside a shop for a few minutes. By the tiime owners came home from holiday dog had done their 7 days & been rehomed. New owners refused to return dog, court cases ensued but where dropped when the original owners were warned the costs could bankrupt them if they lost. If the dog had therefore done their time (might be twenty eight days rather than 7 in the is case if dog warden wasn't involved I think) before being rehomed I think the rescue would perhaps have room for argument / seeking further details of those cases to discuss with their own solicitors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyspaniels Posted April 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2008 did the owners sign the consent form for pts they usually do that before going in if so then it may help the rescue establish that the dog was unwanted and agree with boos boss above wanna job joe unfortunately not as the vet did not want to pts the puppy and thats why she asked a dog trainer for help, who contacted a rescue rep who offered to help. The owners claim that they have proof of ownership because they have a receipt to state they purchased the dog, it was not microchipped - it is now, in the name of the new owner. Arguement I have is that they gave the dog away, they then spoke to the rescue rep to check the dog had settled and to discuss the dogs medical history etc, it was not until the dog was rehomed that they decided to try and get the dog back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krusewalker Posted April 5, 2008 Report Share Posted April 5, 2008 the 7 days only counts if the dog was registered as a stray at the local authority. if anyone else "finds" a dog and then rehomes, the dog can be reclaimed within 21 days. but there is probably other legal arguments that apply to this particular set of circumstances as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyspaniels Posted April 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2008 well if anyone can think of something please let me know,the rescue rep has already refused to disclose the details of where the dog has gone to the police so its serious enough already Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackmagic Posted April 5, 2008 Report Share Posted April 5, 2008 As you are talking about Scotland, remember Scottish law can be different to English law Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackmagic Posted April 5, 2008 Report Share Posted April 5, 2008 Just a thought, but how would a receipt prove that that was the dog? I think the rescue should take legal advice on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merledogs Posted April 5, 2008 Report Share Posted April 5, 2008 (edited) Arguement I have is that they gave the dog away, they then spoke to the rescue rep to check the dog had settled and to discuss the dogs medical history etc, it was not until the dog was rehomed that they decided to try and get the dog back? A dog counts as a chattel, ie a possession. If they gave a possession away to someone else, then they can't claim it back when they feel like it, surely? It is not theft because they GAVE the dog to the vet and they were aware it was being rehomed. Does the rescue have anything of the dog (vax card, medical history, notes re its likes/dislikes, etc) as proof that they intended the dog to be found a new home? Would the vet be prepared to give evidence to say that they had asked him to PTS the dog? If so then I would think the rescue has a very strong case. Do you or anyone at the rescue have a legal helpline they can ring for advice (usually with home insurance or some bank accounts you have one)? I found this on Dog Law (it relates to custody/access disputes but I assume it is the same principle): http://www.doglaw.co.uk/legal/custody.php Custody and Access DisputesIn law, a dog is regarded as a 'chattel' ie. an item that is owned. In the event of a dispute on who should have custody, the Court would consider who is the dog's owner. Such a case is likely to be heard in the Small Claims Court (part of the County Court) and the claim would be for: A declaration of ownership, and An order for the return of the dog, and An order for damages for wrongful retention of the dog Edited April 5, 2008 by madmerle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsey Posted April 5, 2008 Report Share Posted April 5, 2008 Just wondering.. could the rescue give details of another family with similar dog (who were in agreement) and then say 'oh thats not your dog? well we cant help you then' Ok so probably not but really i dont see how the original owners could prove it was their dog in the first place a reciept doesnt prove to the police which particular dog it is does it? The dogs now microchipped to the new owners and if the rescue can string it out the dog will grow up and hopefully not look too much like any puppy pics they may have. It wouldnt be worth the original owners while i shouldnt think from people that wanted to pts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyspaniels Posted April 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2008 the vet has made a statement to the police staing exactly what has happened, which is why this is completely strange. Solicitors have been brought on board but obviously folks who know a bit about dog law might have some good suggestions. Rescue was given the dogs medical history from the vets which included vax history etc, this did not come from the owners, it was sent with the dog from the vets. The dog did come with all its food, bedding, collar and lead etc, which you would not hand over unless the dog was not going to be returned to you. Thanks, will read over the dog law stuff, looks good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ranirottie Posted April 5, 2008 Report Share Posted April 5, 2008 I had a similar thing happen to me,not quite the same but similar. A lady said she had a nervous breakdown and fled to her mums leaving her dogs behind. I was asked by a fellow rescuer if I could take a bitch and 3 pups. They were delivered to me.late at night and unexpected, by a third party. I kept them for over 3 weeks and then rehomed them. A couple of weeks later she wanted them back. She took me to court and won because as she hadn't actually signed them over (just given verbal consent) they were still her property. So unless they are actually signed over she has a right to her property back. I nearly got 6 months in prison for refusing to say where i had rehomed the dogs to. In the end I had to pay £1100 in compensation,altho she applied for over £4000!!. x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyspaniels Posted April 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2008 crap, that sounds exactly the same, its the refusal to say where the dog is thats landing the person who is going through this in trouble. In Scotland its ever so slightly different in so much as a verbal agreement is law, but thats going to be really hard to prove Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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