Katie Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 can I ask a few questions that I suspect will show my complete ignorance of the subject does stack mean putting a dog in a pose for judging who decides how a dog should or should not stand when its being judged why do show GSDs appear to have to stand with there back legs down and slighty apart as if they were girlie dogs about to have a wee do other dogs have to stand the same way when judged or is it just GSDs would a show GSD naturally stand that way or is it a pose for the judges that the dog is taught who decides what a breed standard is and when it can change Yes stacking means putting a dog into a show 'stance' Is decided by how the dog is best standing to show off its conformation to maximum effect. The way GSDs stand in the ring is actually quite a natural stance for the breed. No other breeds stack differently. As above - yes is a natural stance for the breed. You regularly see them standing that way out of the ring. I know my Heidi does and she has never been show trained. The breed standard is submitted by the breed clubs and then has to be approved by the governing body ie the Kennel Club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kim Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 (edited) The self same Kennel club who have allowed so many changes to so many breed that you have dogs who have difficulty breathing, walking, major eye, hip, elbow, spine problems to name but a few that have all been bred in from selected breeding to get a "breed standard". It's nice to see some breeders are trying to change the health problems their breed has, but it has to be agreed that "show standards" have been to the detriment a lot of breeds, you only have to look at the difference between any working line of dog to it's show counter part to see that... It's also true as stated before GSD'S are seeing a huge decline in being used as working dogs ( I'm not taking about sports dogs here who only have to do a few hours work to get their accreditation) as they no longer have the temp or the capabilities to do a 24/7 job, which is why the Malinois is now seen more often as a working dog.. Edited March 10, 2008 by Kim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurel n Hardy Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 I didnt see the dog in question but a lot of them around here have the sloping back and bowed legs I grew up with one and she had strong straight legs, striaght back and was very swift & powerfull possible my favorite breed of all (except westies) and one I may have one someday but not with a curved spine and dodgy looking legs L&H RMF - they were called Alsations when i was small and I still can't call them anything else old fashioned - Moi !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoebejo Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 Are 'breed standard' and 'show standard' often different? The reason I ask is that I used to know somebody who showed their dog. It was quite a rare and unusual breed. This person was well respected in their breed and on the committee of the breed club. But they utterly despaired of the show judges who were awarding prizes to dogs who were not of breed standard, ie dogs that were too tall. This was at Crufts, so these 'incorrect' dogs were passing through the net, reaching top level and winning even though they shouldn't. Because these dogs were winning, that's what other breeders of the bred started aiming for even though it was moving away from how the breed looked originally but they felt they had to to be successful at major events like Crufts. If the above happens with other breeds then surely it's possible that the reason banana backed GSDs are winning at Crufts is because the old traditional style has evolved over time to suit judges? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happylittlegreensquirrel Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 Yes stacking means putting a dog into a show 'stance' Is decided by how the dog is best standing to show off its conformation to maximum effect. The way GSDs stand in the ring is actually quite a natural stance for the breed. No other breeds stack differently. As above - yes is a natural stance for the breed. You regularly see them standing that way out of the ring. I know my Heidi does and she has never been show trained. The breed standard is submitted by the breed clubs and then has to be approved by the governing body ie the Kennel Club. Thank you kindly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kim Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 Are 'breed standard' and 'show standard' often different? The reason I ask is that I used to know somebody who showed their dog. It was quite a rare and unusual breed. This person was well respected in their breed and on the committee of the breed club. But they utterly despaired of the show judges who were awarding prizes to dogs who were not of breed standard, ie dogs that were too tall. This was at Crufts, so these 'incorrect' dogs were passing through the net, reaching top level and winning even though they shouldn't. Because these dogs were winning, that's what other breeders of the bred started aiming for even though it was moving away from how the breed looked originally but they felt they had to to be successful at major events like Crufts. If the above happens with other breeds then surely it's possible that the reason banana backed GSDs are winning at Crufts is because the old traditional style has evolved over time to suit judges? The breed standard can vary from country to country. So a dog who may match the standard in one country will not in another.. Rott's in America are heavier built, Rott's in German are quite lean dogs It can and does happen I know people who won't show their dogs under a certain Judge or Judges as they know the dog won't get placed as their dog is not the "type" the judge likes.. Ie in Rott's the judge can prefer a "heavier" set dog, or a wet face over a dry face, prefer dark markings to light, they all meet the breed standard but if the judge has their own preferences the dog with those preference will win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katie Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 As Kim quite rightly says the breed standard can differ slightly from country to country. For example the US breed standard for GSDs wants a longer dog - our breed standard is the same as the FCI standard (the GSD one I mean) but slightly shortened. The problem with the breed standard is interpretation - and all judges have traits they prefer to see and 'types' within a breed that they like. An extreme example is of course the GSD - although the two 'types' seen in the show ring are so different it is sometimes hard to imagine they are the same breed they are both judged against exactly the same standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindsay Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 the Anatolian, Belgian Shepherd or the Beuceron, all have similar working histories to the GSD, why don't they have the same back ? my own answer would be fashion I don't know that much about any of the showing considerations, but Belgian shepherds are also built quite differently, they are very light and built on the square rather than the oblong (that's how I put it, it's probably not correct terminology!). I too did a double take when seeing the Crufts dog, and did think he looked "crippled" with very weak hindquarters in appearance, but am surprised to hear he has his Schutzhund 3 so I've learnt something there. GSDs were one of my first loves and I tend to like a very unexaggerated looking dog, with neither a banana back nor with very short legs. I tend to like those bred by working trials people very often. Just my opinion though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gooster Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 Just popped into this thread, as I was there whilst the judging was going on (we made it onto the tv and everything!!). The dog basically towed the handler round the ring, and I'm sure that everyone has noticed that when their dog tows them, their backs are really angular as they are trying to pull forwards with their chest with all their power. The handler was about the same size as me (little and light), and I reckon part of the problem was with the fact that she was just too small and light to control him to do a proper show trot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
celeste Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 Are 'breed standard' and 'show standard' often different? The reason I ask is that I used to know somebody who showed their dog. It was quite a rare and unusual breed. This person was well respected in their breed and on the committee of the breed club. But they utterly despaired of the show judges who were awarding prizes to dogs who were not of breed standard, ie dogs that were too tall. This was at Crufts, so these 'incorrect' dogs were passing through the net, reaching top level and winning even though they shouldn't. Because these dogs were winning, that's what other breeders of the bred started aiming for even though it was moving away from how the breed looked originally but they felt they had to to be successful at major events like Crufts. If the above happens with other breeds then surely it's possible that the reason banana backed GSDs are winning at Crufts is because the old traditional style has evolved over time to suit judges? Sadly this is a very true observation with many breeds, an other example is the Huskies and Malamutes who's own breed standard calls for a harsh stand offish coat but most judges don't bother and award wins to dogs with plush incorrect coats, it might not seem such a big deal but when you consider these dogs originated in very harsh conditions, a good weather proof coat would have been essential, Shar-pei's are another one, they are supposed to have a "horse coat" but they are seldom seen with such a pelt. Obviously neither of these traits are to the detriment of a domestic dogs health but serve to highlight how judges can influence breed standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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