Jackthelab Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 A very tetchy subject and one which the government is too afraid to tackle due to being branded Racist. News today that one in four children born in Britain has a foreign parent is clearest possible evidence of the effect of mass immigration on our society. Many people simply don’t understand how this could have happened without anyone being consulted and they are deeply concerned about the future. Is it a c*** up or a conspiracy? This topic is not about Racisim or colour of skin, so please lets not go down that route, but about the economic stability of our country. The government needs to build more houses to accommodate the population growth, much of that housing land will need found on the Green Belt, although there are many Brown field sites earmarked, many of our rural communities are in danger of becoming an urban sprawl not to mention the pressure this will put on wildlife being pushed out. Article from the Sunday Times of 28 October, recognises that "It is not easy writing about immigration without being accused by the left of racism or by the right of complacency." It stresses that "polls show that people are deeply concerned about its impact and frustrated that a policy fundamentally changing the nature of Britain is occurring with little or no debate." It notes that many people in the UK feel that the political elite "have either lied about the scale of immigration or else buried their heads in the sand." The article concludes that there is one thing that cannot be done and that "is to remain silent." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meandmy4? Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Yes it does we should be more like Australia as they so strict, this country is going bust Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffymad Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 I am one such immigrant I came to the UK near enough 10 years ago from germany and although being part of the EC it isn't all easy peasy for me. Granted I do not need a works visa or residency to stay here, but that is because I am from a EC country. However considering that I have been paying taxes for near enough 10 years (01/01/08 is my 10 yr anniversairy), I don't get all the right you guys have. I am not allowed to vote in the general election (yet I am allowed to pay taxes), I am not allowed to claim unemployment benefits for more than 3 months should I loose my job (yet I have paid taxes from day 1 as I had a job when I got here), I am only allowed to stay if I can support myself (so where did 10 years national insurance money come into it?) But I love this country and I feel home here so I put up with it. But please don't forget, imigration doesn't always mean people are here for freebies, as you can see I get no freebies what so ever. Cindy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackthelab Posted November 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Its great to hear from both sides Cindy , thats the point of this thread, to hear about people's stories too, thank you. I think we also have to remember that Britain has evolved through Immigration, we have lots of positives as well as the negatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslass Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Yes it does we should be more like Australia as they so strict, this country is going bust If the original Australians (aboriginal peoples) had been 'strict', Australia wouldn't be full of British people now. We didn't even ask them what they thought, or whether they'd welcome us in - we just barged on to their island and put up flags, in the British manner. Most of my family emigrated to Australia in the fifties - were they thinking they might improve Australia? Were they hell. They went out, hoping to improve their lot, much as most immigrants to the UK do now. Sure, there are a few who don't 'fit in', who are reluctant to work - isn't this true of people everywhere? It suits the powers-that-be to have social divisions. While we're all fighting among ourselves, they can get on with war-mongering and trading with corrupt leaders across the world. I'd be more concerned about my taxes being spent on bombs and guns than on a few needy immigrants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycas Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 I am not greatly bothered by people immigrating to the UK, I think it's healthy for people to move about a bit. I think we could do with a bit more emigrating to balance it out though, and a LOT more careful planning. I don't like the fact that our population is shooting up so fast. I don't think we have the infrastructure to handle such massive growth. They are building houses like a rash all over, and yet the roads are no wider and the public transport is just as crummy, the school classes get bigger and bigger and they are still 'centralising' hospital services to places that are hours away from many of the people that need to use them... There are 3 large brand-new housing estates quite near here, yet the nearest town where there are reasonable numbers of jobs is a 40 minute drive away. The next nearest town is tiny and only accessible over a single-carriageway 17th century bridge designed for horse traffic. There's no extra provision for transporting all these people to their jobs, or to get them to the shops. I'm guessing most of those new houses will have 2 cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greytgirl Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 The only reason it bothers me, is that until we have no homeless etc, we have sorted the problems we already have then I believe people shouldn't be coming into this country and recieveing all they do, I have no problem if they come and fully support themselves, but unfortunately..like alot of people born here, I might add, they dont. We have hospitals and schools closing down everywhere, where will all these people go? we are running out of fields to build on? what happens then..with me, its more a fear of what will happen if it just continues and continues, like someone else said, it's nothing to do with colour, language or religion, just a case of can our country cope with it? so in a way Yes would be my answer, it does bother me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akitas Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 (edited) I find it interesting that when people talk about immigration they always assume people come here to be "freeloaders". I think a lot of people come here not to live on benefits, but to find a job and provide for their family. As Cindy said, they pay their taxes and very often get the unwanted (dirty) jobs. Everywhere you find people exploiting the system, nationals and immigrants the same. I heard a few weeks ago that this year 150,000 immigrants came to the UK, but around 250,000 British left the UK to live elsewhere. Is that ok then? Or should they rather stay "home" and be happy? Usually these discussions are used to generate fear and hate (not saying this one is posted for that reason, but it is nicely used by the politicians) In a world that is growing closer we cannot avoid immigration. And where were we without our international restaurant, insight in different cultures and knowledge from different countries. We like to go there on a holiday, but we don't like them here. They support the economy , if they work, pay taxes, buy stuff, rent or buy houses etc. And they might even adopt a rescue dog ;-) Edited November 8, 2007 by akitas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meandmy4? Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 I must say I know we are living in a multi cultural society but I think the British are being shoved out. Was talking to my son the other day about this and they no longer are allowed to say the lords prayer so as not to offend............. was talking to my youngest sone teacher and not allowed to sing ba ba black sheep as is offensive...........but they are doing a massive project on the kahran, sorry I cant help it but it grips my poo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EGAR Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Alot of homeless peeps got into this situation due to alcohol/drug abuse. It has nothing to do with not finding work and is a vicious circle, it has even less to do with Immigrants IMHO. I am a foreigner too and have had to put up with ALOT of racism - white on white racism mind! I have been called a Bloody Gerry, a Fecking Yank and one particular nice but clearly not very intelligent older man called me a Black and Tan (they came over here and took our women and now they are taking me dog!). Umph. The fact remains that we fear what we don't know and it is natural to do so as it is in our genes. However, the world HAS become a much smaller place and I personally find it great to be able to live here in Ireland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alison Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 Not saying where I stand on the immigration issue - tbh I'm ambivalent about it and that's because I find it so difficult to get the facts that I need to form an informed opinion. Government facts and figures, by their own admission, are a joke. What does rag me is the stifling of debate. I've found Fugees to be intelligent, sensible and caring people but sadly this is not representative of the nation as a whole. I think we probably all know an ignorant bigot or three. In my own experience such folks are ill-educated, ignorant and frightened, easily whipped up by the gutter press and given to such thoughts as "they're nicking our jobs/houses/benefits etc". When they see every politician who dares to try and debate the issue rationally getting traduced (and generally losing their job into the bargain) they become afraid. They panic: "If our politicians can't voice the nation's concerns, what chance do we stand of our own voices being heard?" They then fall prey to organisations such as the odious BNP as they feel that that party will have the guts to speak out where others dare not. I think all that most of them start out wanting is an honest debate. To deny that there's a problem is like pretending, for example, that your dog doesn't bite people - a downright dangerous thing to deny for both the dog and his/her potential victims. Everyone here would admit that there was problem and work on ways of addressing it. Julie Spence, Chief Constable for Cambridgeshire, recently said that ......well she dispassionately stated lots of obvious and irrefutable facts here. She was immediately jumped on and branded a racist. She may well be - I've never met her and she could be a raving facist for all I know - but there was nothing racist in anything that she said in this particular instance as far as I'm concerned. My work place is often jokingly referred to as "The United Nations (East Midlands Branch)", a very multicultural and cosmopolitan environment to put it mildly. Colleagues of every ethnicity complain that the politically generated clamp down on free speech does them more harm than good and they just wish that it would stop. They wish that the presumably well intentioned do gooders would realise how their actions are inadvertently causing so much resentment against them. They're becoming resented because their British white-for-generations tormentors blame them for the fact that they're no longer allowed to discuss the matter of immigration in any way in their own communities and country without being castigated as xenophobic. I would certainly feel very frustrated and insulted were I branded a racist for simply wishing to discuss the matter. I know I would be, so I simply don't bother. Sorry, I'm off on a rant here. I think that the reason that most people do want open and reasoned debate is that the government appear to be so thick. Can't remember the figures or proper names for what went on (or countries involved) but when Tony Bliar [sic] announced that it was OK for the UK to open the borders for eastern European migrants to come and work here, he'd based that on the assumption that it would amount to 13,000 incoming migrants. A couple of years down the line, the true figure (by the government's own admission) is closer to 300,000. No sh*t Sherlock. When even the poorest educated people in Britain could see that coming whilst the government failed to, those citizens become afraid. At best, it's like the lunatics running the asylum and at worst, nah, surely the government can't be more stupid than we are - they've got a hidden agenda and actually want all these immigrants here. What are they up to that they're not telling us about? Ripe for BNP membership I fear - and I really do fear; this is something that worries me a great deal. Last rant. The Government say that they believe bullying in schools must be eradicated and I agree wholeheartedly. I also believe that children learn by example, whether those examples be good or bad. Some years ago, a ship carrying illegal immigrants was approached by the coastguard off the coast of Dover. The immigrants (Romanians I think, but I could be wrong) had passed through several "safe" countries where they should've claimed asylum prior to crossing The Channel. Their stated aim, as they told the coastguards, was to claim asylum in Britain where they could benefit most. Surely people truly desperate to flee a dangerous regime would be happy to settle anywhere safe. Is that not the true meaning of asylum? Were Sol and I fleeing a dangerous situation, we'd be happy to sleep in a cattle barn as long as we'd got a roof over our heads and were safe from potential harm. When the coastguard tried to turn the ship back towards France (an internationally recognised safe haven - the one that they'd just left) mothers were holding their babies over the side of the boat and threatening to drop them into the sea. Bullying. They got their way and were allowed into Britain. What message does this send to the kids in schools who are being exhorted not to bully? That if you bully, you get what you want. On a positive note (and this is not at all flippant as it will come to pass) I can assure you that things will be very different when me and Sol come to power and are running this country Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 I have to say that I agree with a fair bit of what Alison wrote in particular with the racist bigot card being produced and used to stifle free debate - it has become far too big a stick to threaten people with and so few speak out openly to raise concerns or discuss issues for fear of being labeled and attacked. That is something guaranteed to annoy the heck out of me personally but even more worryingly it is being abused and creating an "us and them" undercurrent of resentment which allows radical organisations to flourish and grow and which attracts more and more people to their ranks who are getting fed up of being bullied by what they perceive are "foreigners" or "outsiders" and without being able to discuss the issues they have absolutely no opportunity to see both sides and no opportunity to find the common ground or see that their fears are unwarranted. Julie Spence spoke factually about the very serious practical problems her force deals with yet instead of engaging in a discussion about it, instead of acknowledging there is a problem far easier for her to be shouted down and branded a racist, which does nothing whatsoever to solve those problems. The OP when posting this topic felt it necessary to say this topic is not about race or skin colour and ask we not go down that route - personally I'm not at all sure we can discuss the issues without acknowledging the problems of culture clash, differing value systems, xenophobia etc. without the very real possibility of that being perceived as racism by others. It's why when I saw the thread title in my list of new threads this morning my heart sank. Being xenophobic isn't being racist yet it is commonly misused and misunderstood - you cannot discuss immigration without recognising and discussing the influence and impact of xenophobia what you can do is understand that that does not make anyone racist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffymad Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 I agree that today's world is far to much of a nanny state and your aren't allowed to say anything that could be remotely seen as racism. Best example (and I am sure anyone with a sense of humor watched this) do you remember 'Harry Enfields Fritz the german tourist' who was quite openly taking the pee out of us germans. I loved watching it, I laughed at times so hard that I had to cry. Can you imagine anything like this being produced in todays world? sadly I think not. But why not? Surely the only reason why everyone is up on the 'PC stuff' is because we let other people dictate to us what is PC and what is not. I used to get called by my friends as a joke 'Kraut' and in return I used to call them as a joke 'Island monkeys', today one wouldn't dare. If people would stop taking themselves so self important or that their skin/race/religion is more suffering or important than others, it might come back to normality where one can make a joke and people will take it as what it is, a joke. As for jobs and freebies, I worked as a fruit packer for £2.50 per hour when I first came to the UK. That was before minimum wage, I had to work 10 hrs to get £20 as £5 was taken by the agency for transport. Funny enough there wasn't one British person on any of my shifts. Yes it was a shite job, a hard job but it gave me money for food and that is what it was all about. A stepping point. Cindy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackthelab Posted November 9, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 On a positive note (and this is not at all flippant as it will come to pass) I can assure you that things will be very different when me and Sol come to power and are running this country Well you have my vote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackthelab Posted November 9, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 (edited) The OP when posting this topic felt it necessary to say this topic is not about race or skin colour and ask we not go down that route - personally I'm not at all sure we can discuss the issues without acknowledging the problems of culture clash, differing value systems, xenophobia etc. without the very real possibility of that being perceived as racism by others. It's why when I saw the thread title in my list of new threads this morning my heart sank. Being xenophobic isn't being racist yet it is commonly misused and misunderstood - you cannot discuss immigration without recognising and discussing the influence and impact of xenophobia what you can do is understand that that does not make anyone racist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia I mentioned the colour and race issue as sometimes we can become very emotional about particular 'groups' of people, I in particular moved house because of Black Gangs becoming more prevalant in our community and it became a scary place to live, now I could be branded a racist for mentioning the colour of the gang, I wanted to start an open discussion about ALL aspects if Immigration, not just the colour of skin or race. its so important to everyone and we are so DAMN frightened of talking about it, yet start a conversation with anyone on this subject and you'll be talking passionately for hours. Someone actually said to me last night....I am NOT Racist, but have become Racially Intolerant and that about sums it up. Edited November 9, 2007 by Jackthelab Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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