Would A Proper Copper Have Stood And Watched A Child Die?

[Kats inc]

Were you aware Ian that the unions advice to nurses is to walk away from the scenes of accidents without offering help now? This is because of the increasing number of people who are suing both nurses and doctors for failing to save their relatives lives after accidents.So we're now told,don't stop and help,just walk away and say and do nothing.

 

People put the responsibility for saving lives at the feet of the emergency services but forget the repercussions involved.The CSO's I work with are fantastic and I'm pretty sure would not have hesitated to take action in a case like this.But we have to work within rules for our own protection and those rules are often made to protect us from you,the very public we are there to work with.

 

Just turning this on it's head and making you perhaps see this from an alternative perspective.

[GSDFan]

So, as I asked in the original post would we be better off recruiting one more "proper copper" than 2 Pcso's, Community Wardens etc? (obviously, I think the answer to that is yes)

 

No, I don't think we would. The majority of PCSO's do an excellent job doing what they are paid to do. They also do it for considerably less salary than a Police Officer. As a tax payer I would rather ( for example ) pay a PCSO around £15,000 p.a. to control traffic than I would pay a Police Officer in excess of £22,000 p.a. to control traffic. We probably need more rather than less PCSO's so they can free up Police Officers to do what they should be doing which is stopping and solving crimes.

 

Maybe the question should be would a real man have stood and watched a child die, and the answer would be no he wouldnt, regardless of what job he did he would have gone in there, no question about it.

 

A real man ( or woman ! ) would have evaluated the situation, not just done some foolhardy 'brave' act which could easily result in further deaths. It sounds from reports as though the child was already dead, so real men ( or possibly women ) did not stand and watch a child die anyway.

 

although a serious subject I am tittering quietly to myself at this knowing that each and every one of us if we saw a dog drowning, be it ours or someone elses we would be in there

 

 

I'm afraid you know wrong then. I would not go into deepish or dangerous water to save a dog. Due to my emotional ties to my own dogs I might be tempted to do so therefore I make very sure they are never in a position where they might get into dangerous water. If it is higher than my knees or at all turbulent they aren't allowed in.

 

Most of the service people on the ground in my opinion warrant a lot more respect and a better salary than they are given - I wouldn't say the same about the PCSO & Community Wardens in this area.

 

 

The PCSO's in our area do a very good job and in my opinion warrant just as much respect as the Police Officers they assist.

 

Were you aware Ian that the unions advice to nurses is to walk away from the scenes of accidents without offering help now? This is because of the increasing number of people who are suing both nurses and doctors for failing to save their relatives lives after accidents.So we're now told,don't stop and help,just walk away and say and do nothing.

 

 

It's such a shame that is the advice but I can understand why.

[Ian]

No probably not, but then they don't have the training, the powers of arrest or indeed the equipment to facilitate such a thing.

 

That's the point of one aspect of the question - and certainly the Police Federations position. As nice as it would be if they always knew what they were facing that's not the case. Did your husband know he was going to face a knife for example? What about the Police Officer who went to investigate a routine matter of a man lurking around a car - and then got shot dead for his trouble? Sometimes they unfortunately stumble across something without any warning.

 

One day it could well happen to one of these PCSO's.

[Ian]

I was going to comment but can't be bothered to justify why I should be concerned for my husband's safety regardless of what his actions may or may not be.

All I would say is that in the reports I've seen, the boy had already disappeared under water before the PCSOs arrived at the scene, they were directed to the wrong place initially, the pond is more like the size of a lake and I've not seen any mention of any Sergeant entering the water without backup or safety equipment.

Entering the water when you know where the person is, is IMO, quite different to entering the water with no idea where they are or how long they have been under.

 

Nowhere did I ask you to justify concern for your husbands safety - that's more than understandable. What I was suggesting was that if you asked your husband - a proper copper - whether he would enter the water faced with a drowning child I suspect he would say yes because there is something extra in the character of most police officers that many people don't have & there are many accounts of Police Officers commiting acts of bravery without regard for their own safety.

 

There was reference to the Police Seargent in at least one of the BBC links - though those stories have evolved & it's no longer there - and it's also been on TV reports

 

However, here is an extract and the link it is taken from:

When Sergeant Craig Lippitt, a regular police officer, arrived minutes later, he stripped off his body armour and jumped into the pond in Wigan.

 

Jordon was pulled from the water but, despite attempts to resuscitate him, was pronouced dead in hospital.

 

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article...rown/article.do

[Ian]

Were you aware Ian that the unions advice to nurses is to walk away from the scenes of accidents without offering help now? This is because of the increasing number of people who are suing both nurses and doctors for failing to save their relatives lives after accidents.So we're now told,don't stop and help,just walk away and say and do nothing.

 

People put the responsibility for saving lives at the feet of the emergency services but forget the repercussions involved.The CSO's I work with are fantastic and I'm pretty sure would not have hesitated to take action in a case like this.But we have to work within rules for our own protection and those rules are often made to protect us from you,the very public we are there to work with.

 

Just turning this on it's head and making you perhaps see this from an alternative perspective.

 

I wasn't aware of that and am not much of a fan of unions to be honest. Far from seeing it differently here I just think that is disgraceful advice (as is suing someone who tried desperately to help you in a crisis) and which I would suspect most nurses would not heed if they came across an accident / emergency where life was in imminent danger. Although we haven't met or spoken & I can therefore only base a perception on posts you've made I would be inclined to think better of you than to believe you could stand & watch a 10 year old die without at least trying to help

[Ian]

No, I don't think we would. The majority of PCSO's do an excellent job doing what they are paid to do. They also do it for considerably less salary than a Police Officer. As a tax payer I would rather ( for example ) pay a PCSO around £15,000 p.a. to control traffic than I would pay a Police Officer in excess of £22,000 p.a. to control traffic. We probably need more rather than less PCSO's so they can free up Police Officers to do what they should be doing which is stopping and solving crimes.

 

The PCSO's in our area do a very good job and in my opinion warrant just as much respect as the Police Officers they assist.

 

I don't know whether you've literally got them doing this in your area but round here traffic wardens used to direct traffic if lights went down (not sure about now as the parking wardens have been privatised) Decades have passed since the last time I saw a Police Officer do that.

 

If a PCSO sees a need to arrest someone they still need a Police Officer so I cant see that an extra 7k (as per your example) for a fully trained officer is bad value at all. Nor do I see why, someone who you yourself say is there for directing traffic and relatively minor matters, deserves the same respect as someone who is prepared to put his life on the line if necessary

[sprogsbloke]

watch a 10 year old die without at least trying to help

 

You keep quoting this although all the evidence shows that there was no sign of life when they arrived and in the public enquiry it was stated that the child was most likely already dead when they did arrived. The PCSO's did not just stand by and watch the child die.

[Ingrid]

You seem to have ignored my previous comment, more often then not PCSOs do not need to do anything other then make an appearance, no arrest necessary as the trouble stops as soon as someone in uniform appears.

 

Many years ago when I did my original First Aid Course I was given similar advice as now given to medical staff if I was in the USA, if you saw someone collapse just walk away, if you did any minor damage whilst saving a life you would no doubt be sued, sadly this attitude has now crossed the Atlantic and is the same here, when something goes wrong people just want to make someone pay !!!

[Ian]

You keep quoting this although all the evidence shows that there was no sign of life when they arrived and in the public enquiry it was stated that the child was most likely already dead when they did arrived. The PCSO's did not just stand by and watch the child die.

 

"Probably" or "Most likely" not definitely. We will never know whether he might have been saved had he been pulled out a few minutes sooner. What is definitely acknowledged is that they did not enter the water and try to get poor little Jordan out of there - unlike the proper copper who presumably felt he had to at least try!

[Brenda]

I'd feel awful if I'd watched a 10 year old die without even tryingto help him. To me if you die trying to save him then you die but I'd have to at least try.

 

As i understand it, the boy was probably already dead before the PCSO's arrived, therefore they did not watch him die. If they did not know where he was, to enter the water would have been putting themselves at great danger and possibly end up with 3 bodies rather than 1. Try telling your relatives the above quote - I'm sure they would not feel the same. I work as an HCA and on a recent patient handling course we were told that if a patient falls, we have to let them fall and not risk ourselves injury by trying to save them. Sign of the times.

[Red Rotties]

I'm afraid you know wrong then. I would not go into deepish or dangerous water to save a dog. Due to my emotional ties to my own dogs I might be tempted to do so therefore I make very sure they are never in a position where they might get into dangerous water. If it is higher than my knees or at all turbulent they aren't allowed in.

 

 

We all are extra careful of our pets but look recently with Marion (Yantan) and her friend, a walk done many times almost turned in to disater when the dogs found a slurry pit. They could stand and watch them sink and managed at great danger to themselves to get them out

[sprogsbloke]

"Probably" or "Most likely" not definitely. We will never know whether he might have been saved had he been pulled out a few minutes sooner. What is definitely acknowledged is that they did not enter the water and try to get poor little Jordan out of there - unlike the proper copper who presumably felt he had to at least try!

 

Yet you are happy to quote that they did actually stand and watch the child drown without doing anything without any evidence that they did and in fact all evidence points to there being no sign of life. The area of water is the size of a football field so how would they have known what area to start looking anyway?

 

You have never questioned why the parents allowed these children to be playing near a large area of water they are the guardians of the children it is their responsibility to ensure the safety of their children.

 

If they had just jumped in blindly, and without being trained on water rescues, we could well be looking even more of a tragedy with one or both of the PCSO's being killed would you prefer that to have happened? The Police Officer would have had more training and might well have been trained on water rescues.

[GSDFan]

I don't know whether you've literally got them doing this in your area but round here traffic wardens used to direct traffic if lights went down (not sure about now as the parking wardens have been privatised) Decades have passed since the last time I saw a Police Officer do that.

 

If a PCSO sees a need to arrest someone they still need a Police Officer so I cant see that an extra 7k (as per your example) for a fully trained officer is bad value at all. Nor do I see why, someone who you yourself say is there for directing traffic and relatively minor matters, deserves the same respect as someone who is prepared to put his life on the line if necessary

 

 

I'm not sure whether I've ever seen them directing traffic when lights have gone out ( I can't remember having seen a Traffic Warden do it either ) but they certainly do direct traffic where there has been an accident.

 

I don't think Police Officers are bad value, I think on the whole they should earn more than they do, but I do believe their talents and training should be utilised in the best manner possible.

 

PCSO's do a job which tends to make them unpopular and given the wrong circumstances can easily 'put their life on the line' so of course they deserve the same sort of respect as a Police Officer. Anyone who does an unpleasant or unpopular job deserves a great deal more respect than they usually get.

 

I'm one of a what must be a very small percentage of people who respect Traffic Wardens

[Ian]

You seem to have ignored my previous comment, more often then not PCSOs do not need to do anything other then make an appearance, no arrest necessary as the trouble stops as soon as someone in uniform appears.

 

I wasn't ignoring it, you're entitled to post your opinion just as much as I am. I think I've already made it clear that I agree with the Police Federations view - we'd be better off with more "proper coppers" than cheaper substitutes. I therefore just hadn't felt the need to post a comment to say I disagreed. You may well have had some positive experience but there's also plenty of youth's not bothered about the Police these days let alone PCSO's. I know which I would want to rely on.

 

 

 

As for PCSO training & responsibilities even David Blunkett, who introduced PCSO's & presumably approved or perhaps drafted the sort of job descriptions which have been quoted here is critical of the PCSO's actions in this case and says he, a blind man, would have at least tried to save the lad.

 

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/skynews/20070922/...-45dbed5_1.html

[sprogsbloke]

As for PCSO training & responsibilities even David Blunkett, who introduced PCSO's & presumably approved or perhaps drafted the sort of job descriptions which have been quoted here is critical of the PCSO's actions in this case and says he, a blind man, would have at least tried to save the lad.

 

Blunkett is a politician so he is just out to increase his popularity.

 

The enquiry did not question the actions of the PCSO's even in the article you have posted about it quotes "Detective Chief Inspector Phil Owen, of Wigan CID, said it would have been "inappropriate" for PCSOs, who are not trained in water rescue, to enter the pond" so everybody is saying that the PCSO's have taken the correct course of action when they have arrived at the scene. I am certain things would have been different if there was sign of the child.