Five Month Old Baby Dies In Car

[mooandboo]

No, I disagree. I think Ian will continue to be the kind of man we'd all wish children to have around. I know many men like him - fathers who care for their children and are constantly vigilant over them.

I didn't mean my remark as a slight against Ian because I agree with you, just that he might find things a little less cut and dried - as I have.

[chuckey-lee]

for those who had working parents, be honest did you really not have wanted either of your parents to have been at home for you?

 

I again am not saying that all mums should stay at home and that all working mums are bad mums or all SAHM are good mums , but as a society Im saying we need to get our priorities right and in my eyes this should be our children and nothing else

 

Ian, I think you'd make a great Dad

 

 

one more thing that has been on my mind since this discussion started, how would the reaction be if the title would have said ' dog dies in car after owner forgot about it?'

 

I can recall several topics like that and in none of these anybody has taken in the curcomstanses, every single reply to it has been of condemming these dog-owners to hell,nobody came up to defend these persons

and here's one of those

 

dog dies in car

 

 

 

ps thank you Scotslass for your compliment earlier

[scotslass]

for those who had working parents, be honest did you really not have wanted either of your parents to have been at home for you?

 

 

one more thing that has been on my mind since this discussion started, how would the reaction be if the title would have said ' dog dies in car after owner forgot about it?'

 

I can recall several topics like that and in none of these anybody has taken in the curcomstanses, every single reply to it has been of condemming these dog-owners to hell,nobody came up to defend these persons

and here's one of those

 

dog dies in car

ps thank you Scotslass for your compliment earlier

 

I wanted my mother. I was lucky; we lived with my grandpa, but as a young child, I wanted my mummy there. I know (because she told me) she'd have found being at home full-time with me too boring, which made me feel really good about myself, as you can imagine.

 

 

 

 

That thread chuckey-lee refers to - in case anyone says that the dogs were all deliberately left in cars - this post says otherwise:

 

"I read last week about a moron who had forgotten that his wife had asked him to take the dog to work. He loaded the poor soul in the car and then went to the office. Whilst he was sitting there (no doubt in an air conditioned office) his dog was slowly dying in his car outside

 

After being spotted burying his poor dog, he was reported. Suprise suprise, "I forgot he was there" was enough to get him off. Disgusting"

 

 

 

Glad you had the courage to draw this to our attention, chuckey-lee.

[mooandboo]

There was a programme on this morning about the 1996(7?) heatwave & it told of a grandmother who left her two small grandchildren asleep in the car while she went to get a prescription from the chemist. She thought they would be ok because it would only take two minutes but because of the heat she collapsed on the way and had to be rushed to hospital.

 

By the time hospital staff were able to find her car (in one of two large carparks) both children were in a bad way & one eventually died. The older of the two children had broken his nails trying to open the seat buckle.

 

The mother of the two children was obviously distraught at the death of her child but was also worried about how she would break the news to her mother when she recovered.

 

Was the mother to blame for leaving her children in the care of her mother, was the grandmother to blame for leaving the children in the car, was it neglect or was it just a dreadful accident?

[scotslass]

There was a programme on this morning about the 1996(7?) heatwave & it told of a grandmother who left her two small grandchildren asleep in the car while she went to get a prescription from the chemist. She thought they would be ok because it would only take two minutes but because of the heat she collapsed on the way and had to be rushed to hospital.

 

By the time hospital staff were able to find her car (in one of two large carparks) both children were in a bad way & one eventually died. The older of the two children had broken his nails trying to open the seat buckle.

 

The mother of the two children was obviously distraught at the death of her child but was also worried about how she would break the news to her mother when she recovered.

 

Was the mother to blame for leaving her children in the care of her mother, was the grandmother to blame for leaving the children in the car, was it neglect or was it just a dreadful accident?

 

To me, it's a rhetorical question. Any number of things might have gone wrong, even if the grandmother hadn't collapsed. In those two minutes, someone might have broken into the car, one of the children might have choked...anything. It's all about risk assessment, which carers should be doing constantly.

 

If it was hot enough for the grandmother to collapse from the heat, she must have sensed that heat the moment she left the car. What was she thinking of?

 

As chuckey-lee has just pointed out, if it were a dog, there would be a outcry. Dogs die in hot cars. So do babies.

[Sheplover]

Who is to say that if the mother was a stay at home mom, that this accident wouldn't have happened?

 

If the dog was forgotten in the car, perhaps there would not have been an outcry?

 

In the case Wendy posted, I think depending in the children's ages that the grandma was guilty of neglect

[khanu]

for those who had working parents, be honest did you really not have wanted either of your parents to have been at home for you?

 

Both my parents worked full time and I can honestly say I don't ever remember wishing they were "at home more for me"

 

I had written a whole script on my upbringing but to be honest I don't see why I should feel the need to defend it. My parents worked hard, both of them full time and not to afford luxuries but to afford to house, clothe and feed us. Our first family holiday was when I was 16, our first time abroad was when I was 18.

 

I am proud of what my parents did for me, I am the only person in my family to have completed their education and gone on to university. I believe I'm a pretty good person, I've never been in trouble in my life. Where exactly did my parents go so wrong then?

[tracey.s]

Who is to say that if the mother was a stay at home mom, that this accident wouldn't have happened?

 

If the dog was forgotten in the car, perhaps there would not have been an outcry?

 

In the case Wendy posted, I think depending in the children's ages that the grandma was guilty of neglect

 

How can she be guilty of neglect? She collapsed and was rushed to hospital.

[Kats inc]

Kelly firstly they didn't do any wrong.As I've said numerous times it's quality not quantity.I will go on saying that until I am blue in the face

 

Tracey,not neglect as such but a very unlucky set of circumstances and one that rarely happens.Some things are beyond the control of us as humans or are genuine accidents.Things like falling and being knocked unconscious whilst home alone with your child and your child therefore having an accident.Beyond your control as you didn't intend to bang your head and be knocked out.

 

I do believe both those babies died as a result of neglect and also believe in this country those Mums would be prosecuted.I equally believe many more posters would have been outraged had it been a dog I'm sad to say.

I also believe that had it been the babies fathers that left them there they would be equally as culpable.If it turns out the women are stressed because their partners are useless twonks then I will place some of the responsibility firmly at the fathers doors.

 

In child protection conferences I attend we place equal responsibility for things with both parents,especially now most Dads have PR.

 

My reasoning behind my original question was that I firmly believe whilst most people may feel they can forgive the mother a mistake that costs her child it's life they would not be prepared to forgive me the same mistake for killing another person's child even if the mistake was identical.

 

My views on child protection are probably much more clear cut and clinical and maybe that is hard for some people to take but I'll make no apologies for that.Even today I've had to take a really hard line about something,a child with facial injuries,it's what I'm paid to do.It is all a bit more black & white to me I'm afraid.

[Kathyw]

When we were small children and Mum was home with us, she certainly didn't sit on her backside claiming benefits.

 

There were no benefits in those far off days, no washing machines all done by hand, (boiler and mangle).

The fire was made up in two rooms every morning. No hoover, brooms were the tools used and Mum shopped daily as we didn't have a fridge.

 

I don't think all Mums that stay at home sit on their backsides, I see many of them walking with their small children in parks etc.

I remember being with my small niece and she wanted to investigate a puddle - just a common old puddle and I wanted to move on and was about to grab her hand when I remembered my Mum and I studying a similar puddle for quite some time. I cn remember being amazed that I could see my face in it, the trees reflected in it and when I stamped in it, the way the water went. My niece and I spent about 20 mins at that puddle, 20 mins of joy for that little girl. I see many Mums doing similar things with blades of grass, the mud at the side of the path - all delights for a small child and all for free.

There are many mum's who do inded sit on their butts and teach their children nothing at all - shame on them.

 

The Jesuits say 'Give me the child until he is seven and I will show you the man'. How many potential wonderful people are ruined by parents (working or not) because their potential is smothered by parents who don't give a toss?

 

rmf -I never leave my dogs with anyone and when I have other peoples animals in my care, I watch them like a hawk, more maybe than I do my own dogs.

[khanu]

Kelly firstly they didn't do any wrong.As I've said numerous times it's quality not quantity.I will go on saying that until I am blue in the face

 

That's what I think too

I may have children I may not, at the moment my intention would be to stay at home at first - but not because I believe my parents were wrong, but because I have lost complete faith in the primary education system in this country and I would want to educate my child at home.

 

As for the initial reason for this thread, I believe the mother should be investigated at the very least. She is culpable for her child's death no matter the intention or not. It would seem she needs some help at the very least, and my concern would be for the welfare of the remaining children. What kind of outcry would there be in this country if she wasn't investigated and later another of her children died in an accident?

 

I'm sure my views on child protection are different to others because of my work with young people, some from deprived areas, others from very affluent. One thing is for sure though, whether their parents are wealthy, poor, at home or work it makes sod all difference if they can't give a toss. I'm forever grateful to the child protection team I worked with who helped place one of my cadets with a foster family. He has truely blossomed and recently phoned me to tell my husband and I that he is joining the RAF as aircrew and in his words "leaving all that s*** behind". His parents don't deserve to have such a wonderful son.

[Ian]

A) I don't want to go into detail but I know well of situations where for all on the outside the father is present and *providing*................, I could go on.

 

B) I get so damn tired of everything seeming so black and white in relation to the mother.........

 

C) Ian, as much as I commend you for your beliefs I think you have a lot to learn.

 

On the point I've labelled A) I cant really comment on details I don't have only on the facts of the original post as presented.

 

B) For me it is absolutely black and white that PARENTS (I certainly havent said just the Mother - I'm a man saying this remember - must provide the best possible care for their children first and foremost - end of story.

 

C) ? As you've never met me, never spoken to me, and as far as I'm aware we've not got into too many detailed posts, are you sure it's not more a case that you may have a lot to learn about me and my beliefs? - I certainly can't gice chapter & verse in relatively short posts.

[Ian]

This may be slightly off topic, but there seems to be this idea that there is no such thing as an 'accident' anymore - someone 'has' to be blamed/sued etc in our 'blame' culture where compensation seems to be the name of the game.

 

Leaving a child in a car 'deliberately' ie - knowing the child is there and still leaving it, would be abuse.

 

Circumstances happening that the child is left in the car, but the mother thinking that the child is where he/she would normally be ie in childcare/nursery whatever is IMO a different thing. The mothers in these cases would have thought their child was safely where they usually were.

 

I don't think anyone in this thread has said accident's can't happen. I in fact suggested implicity in reply to the child tipping boiling water from the pan that all be it being negligent on the part of the parent leaving a pan accessible to the child this could happen in seconds and be considered a tragic accident for which a loving parent might genuinely feel remorse for the rest of their lives. I would hope they would learn from it before having another child but wouldn't be calling for them to be hung or even sent to jail unless there was some suggestion they had deliberately tipped boiling water over their child.

 

Your 2nd / 3rd paragraphs just astound me. Circumstances didn't just "happen" The mothers in these cases left the children there and they died as a direct result - how much more black & white can it get?

 

 

Ian - its all very well saying men should pay for the children they produce, but a lot of them dont, hence the reason my friend has to work

 

I'm aware that some men don't but as I said "the Government" should force them to do so - if departments liaised in a better fashion they will between them know exactly where this guy is what money he has coming in, whether they need to push him to find himself a job etc. They could introduce / amend current legislation to find out anything they don't already have themselves - with modern technology there's very little about you that cant be found if somebody chooses to look for it and there is no excuse in my opinion for a man (or woman) failing to support and care for their child - in every sense of the word - this child didnt "happen" - they chose to either have one intentionally or not use contraception etc!

Edited June 6, 2007 by Ian

[sanrossscot]

Your 2nd / 3rd paragraphs just astound me. Circumstances didn't just "happen" The mothers in these cases left the children there and they died as a direct result - how much more black & white can it get?

 

Don't see what is 'astounding' to be honest. We have no idea of the background to the mothers, we have no idea if they have been diagnosed with any PN Depression or have any 'mitigating' mental/physical circumstances. I didn't say it was a 'normal' thing to have happened just that there is a difference between deliberate abuse (as has been cited before) and 'neglect'. These mothers, for whatever reason, did not realise their child was still in the car.

[Ian]

No, I disagree. I think Ian will continue to be the kind of man we'd all wish children to have around. I know many men like him - fathers who care for their children and are constantly vigilant over them.

 

 

Ian, I think you'd make a great Dad

 

 

Thankyou both.

 

 

 

I again am not saying that all mums should stay at home and that all working mums are bad mums or all SAHM are good mums , but as a society Im saying we need to get our priorities right and in my eyes this should be our children and nothing else

 

Now who could argue with that?

 

It brings to my mind the opening lyrics from a song which I really believe in - Whitney Houstons "The Greatest Love of All"

 

"I believe the children are our are future

Teach them well and let them lead the way

Show them all the beauty they possess inside

Give them a sense of pride to make it easier

Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be."

Edited June 6, 2007 by Ian