Parental Roles

[alexis]

My heart goes out to poor Madeleine's family but agree that going out to a tapas bar 150-200 yards from the apartment which according to maps/photos in the news today wasn't in sight of the apartment ( which was near to the entrance of the resort) and checking on the kids once an hour is very different from being in the garden. Some papers have said the apartment french doors were left unlocked.

I doubt Madeleine's parents would have done the same in this country. Although children have been kidnapped from the next room in the past haven't they- I'm thinking about the little girl taken from the bath ? somewhere in the north east fairly recently.

 

I would probably use a babysitting service in a hotel I stayed in when we have kids. As a couple I think spending time together is important. I would also trust a babysitter if needed ( hopefully someone I knew) as we have no family nearby and few friends.

[greytgirl]

I am ultra paranoid on holiday with him and never let him out my sight for a minute - the last couple of times we've been on holiday it's just been him and me, so I even take him into the ladies loo with me (even though he's now nearly 10 ). I don't care about the disapproving looks though - he's my most precious thing and I'm not risking ANYTHING that I could have prevented by being more cautious.

 

And if he doesn't listen to me, then he's going to find out the hard way that I mean what I say when I tell him NEVER to leave him on his own.

 

I totally agree, too much paranoia is never enough, unfortunately it has been proven, much to the dismay of poor, poor Madeleine

We can NEVER be too paranoid with our precious, precious children, or even take the slightest risk, EVER

come home sweetheart

[Ian]

I an, it makes no difference whether they were a professional couple or not - what difference does it make ? I am a single mum of two kids and self employed and have been for twleve years - does that make me different to the "professional couple" who should have known better I think not.

 

The parents could have been sleeping in the room next door and the same thing would have happened, and it could not have been prevented.

 

I dont agree with your last sentence - for reasons I've already been through on two threads & aren't therefore going to repeat again. I just cant believe that anybody would defend going to a bar, restaurant etc and leaving a 3 year old alone - nobody will ever convince me otherwise!

 

As for your first paragraph let me try & explain why I think they are different.

 

As a parent you will I assume agree that if a child is ill or injured you take them to a doctor or hospital. If any parent had left those children somewhere at aged 3, they were ill or injured whilst alone and the parent told a Dr what had happened I would expect that Dr to not only treat the medical condition but also ask whether they felt this was wise and normal practice, to try and advise them and if neccessary to contact Social Services in order to protect the child in the future - part of any medical professionals job. I read that this couple are a Dr & consultant. They would presumably not advise other parents appropriately if they cannot even follow such advice with their own children and therefore in my opinion if that is true they should be expected to clarify their future advice with the GMC.

Edited May 6, 2007 by Ian

[lazydaisy]

My daughter is 14 (15 in July) I was a single parent since being 6mths pregnant with her. I was totally on my own. From the time I got back to my house in the evening to the next morning I was on my own, and never left her because she was my responsibility.

 

When i heard this news on the tv I was very surprised when i found out that the parents were educated. How could they have left 3 little children on thier own in a strange place!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I would not do this at home, never mind in a strange place. I sincerely hope that the litttle girl is found alive and well.

[JoC]

I totally agree, too much paranoia is never enough, unfortunately it has been proven, much to the dismay of poor, poor Madeleine

We can NEVER be too paranoid with our precious, precious children, or even take the slightest risk, EVER

come home sweetheart

I'm not sure I agree with this.

 

It's easy for me because I don't have children, but I do wonder whether constant fear of children being abused or taken is actually a form of abuse in itself? Whether we articulate to our children why we never let them out of our sight or not, they're bound to pick up on the fact that there parents are worried about what will happen to them. I think it could instil in childlren the idea that the world is a very dangerous place with paedophiles lurking around every corner ready to pounce when they least expect it.

 

Children do need to be independent and to have some responsibility for themselves, they'll never get that if they're over protected. I had a friend at school who's parents were very protective and strict. On the other hand, my mum was really relaxed with my brother and me, we were left to fend for ourselves overnight from being about 14 or 15 (my brother's 3 years older though). My friend was pregnant and had an abortion at 14 and never told her parents, while my brother went on to do very well academically, and is now in a highly paid job in a stable relationship with a baby and another on the way. I think he benefited immensely from having responsibilities from an early age.

 

Looking at it statistically, the chances of having anything bad happen to your children if you allow them out of your sight is probably less than 1%, but the chances of them having psychologically affected by being over cautious is much higher.

 

I'm not sure about ages though, I think that depends on the child in question.

 

I'm talking more about allowing them to play out and have a bit of freedom, personally I wouldn't leave a young child home alone as in the case of poor Madeleine, although I think the parents are suffering enough and dont need our judgement.

Edited May 7, 2007 by JoC

[Ruby1Nic]

My heart goes out to poor little Maddie and her family.

 

My opinion is that I would never have left those 3 kiddies on their own whilst I went out. I really cannot agree with comparing what these parents did to some people's experiences here of leaving children whilst they went to the laundry room or into a garden etc.

 

Some comments I've read struck a chord with something my mother had said to me with regards to having children - You never have a proper night's sleep again !

 

I'm in my 30's now and even when I go home to stay for a weekend , my mother always says she never sleeps until she hears the key turn in the lock and she knows i'm in safely

 

The press that I have heard and read indicated that the parents were checking on the children 1/2 hrly rather than hourly, not that that changes my opinion at all, I just thought I'd note it.

[mum24dog]

I'm not sure I agree with this.

 

It's easy for me because I don't have children, but I do wonder whether constant fear of children being abused or taken is actually a form of abuse in itself? Whether we articulate to our children why we never let them out of our sight or not, they're bound to pick up on the fact that there parents are worried about what will happen to them. I think it could instil in childlren the idea that the world is a very dangerous place with paedophiles lurking around every corner ready to pounce when they least expect it.

 

Children do need to be independent and to have some responsibility for themselves, they'll never get that if they're over protected. I had a friend at school who's parents were very protective and strict. On the other hand, my mum was really relaxed with my brother and me, we were left to fend for ourselves overnight from being about 14 or 15 (my brother's 3 years older though). My friend was pregnant and had an abortion at 14 and never told her parents, while my brother went on to do very well academically, and is now in a highly paid job in a stable relationship with a baby and another on the way. I think he benefited immensely from having responsibilities from an early age.

 

Looking at it statistically, the chances of having anything bad happen to your children if you allow them out of your sight is probably less than 1%, but the chances of them having psychologically affected by being over cautious is much higher.

 

I'm not sure about ages though, I think that depends on the child in question.

 

I'm talking more about allowing them to play out and have a bit of freedom, personally I wouldn't leave a young child home alone as in the case of poor Madeleine, although I think the parents are suffering enough and dont need our judgement.

 

Sensible as ever, Jo.

We've had 4 daughters and I think we've managed a balance between keeping them safe and letting them grow up with independence and initiative.

My eldest daughter was rather clingy and shy but now at 27 she says she is glad we encouraged her to do things on her own. She is a totally different person now.

Even our youngest (16 and describes herself as the least adventurous of the 4) is considering a 3 week sports tour of Australia this summer.

The next one up is travelling somewhere in Canada atm after a year at uni there.

The others have done similar.

I don't think we took unreasonable risks with them when they were small and wouldn't have left them alone in a hotel but, as you say, I don't think we should add to the way the little girl's parents are feeling by being judgemental. We all make mistakes, but some have far worse consequences than others.

 

Pam

[greytgirl]

I do agree children need independance, but in balance, my daughter is only 6 yet, she is allowed to play in next doors garden ets, but as long as I can hear her, she ISN'T aware of the way I am, I do it in a way as not to make her worry about everyone and eveything, I don't want her a dithering wreck or having nightmares...BUT unfortunately she has to be made aware of certain dangers, subtly...she gets responsibilities, she is allowed to walk across the road to call for her friends, she doesn't know Im watching her across from my window...Im there but she feels all grown up at 6!!

 

My mum was fair and but in certain areas relatively strict, she gave us boundaries and was quite protective when we were young children, we are ALL fine, you can't say everyone with slightly strict parents are going to rebel..its how you do it. For example, all my doors are locked even in the day if me and my daughter are in alone..she doesn't know this, she is not let out of my eye or ear range she doesn't know the full details why etc. Yes children need independance, but they also need protecting 100% of the time, a sad, but true fact and is even a less than 1% chance worth taking?....

[Kats inc]

Cheryl, I know exactly how you feel - we were keen to move to Hampshire before we moved here as we had good friends there but then we found out that there were regular *paedophile warnings* from the police in the area they were living & we didn't feel comfortable at all so moved here instead.

 

Out of interest Southampton did have the highest release rate in the country of sex offenders back into the community when I worked there in the 90's.

 

Cut & pasted from the NSPCC site

 

What the law says

 

There is no law that states the minimum age that a child can be left alone. However, it is an offence to leave a child alone when doing so puts him or her at risk.

 

A few other points to guide you:

 

Never leave a baby or very young child alone at home, whether asleep or awake, even for a few minutes. It doesn't take long for unsupervised young children or babies to injure themselves.

Most children under 13 should not be left for more than a short period.

No child under 16 should be left overnight.

 

I think we can safely say that these parents choice to leave Madeleine alone put her at significant risk which has sadly been realised.It's a very tough and harsh way to learn.What makes me more frustrated is that as these parents are medically trained they will at some point have had child protection training so will be more aware than the average person of the realities of what goes on in society.

I also think questions will be asked about their parenting on their return to this country.It may seem very harsh but agencies have to put the parents feelings aside in order to safely protect the children.

I think personally the parents have learned in the hardest possible way the actual value of their child which at the time they placed very little value on sadly,not even enough to pay for a baby sitter.I feel for them in human terms and am sure with hindsight they must feel absolutely horrifed by what has happened and by their own actions.That in itself is punishment enough sadly.

[akitas]

I agree with Jo.

Children need to learn to be independent. And they only form to handle abuse is to learn how to say "no" and have trust in your parents/ family to tell them about it.

 

I don't think parental roles are not only connected to leaving your children or not, but being a role model....

I try to be self confident and teach them that they need to take over responsibility for their actions.

That they need to help with the household/family as I see the family as a team.

 

But as well I try to feed them proper stuff, no junk, I teach them not to drink or smoke (as I don't do it)

beware of drugs and all the other "difficulties" in life. And I don't want to be seen by them drunken, don't think that is good for your children.

 

I enjoy my children's company, we do lots of things together, still I enjoy time without them.

As I like to talk to friends without my children around as the range of subjects can be a totally different one.

 

I think parents have to decide what they do, they need to take responsibility for their action...

And I don't think the government need to regulate everything. But maybe I am just expecting that people have brains to think about what they are doing.....

 

And if you exaggerate the whole thing, you shouldn't let your kids go to school/ nursery as you never know what will happen there, at holidays they shouldn't attend the "fun clubs", no sport activities where you take them but don't stay with them, no playing outside unsupervised, no visit at friends houses etc etc, s these are times where you are not with your child, so anything can happen! (just to play devils advocate )

[Kats inc]

And if you exaggerate the whole thing, you shouldn't let your kids go to school/ nursery as you never know what will happen there, at holidays they shouldn't attend the "fun clubs", no sport activities where you take them but don't stay with them, no playing outside unsupervised, no visit at friends houses etc etc, s these are times where you are not with your child, so anything can happen! (just to play devils advocate )

 

You're right about the role model bit.I wish more people thought like that.I've had mums yell at their children for swearing and say 'stop f***ing swearing',I mean what's the point

 

However since the Ian Huntley fiasco one good thing is that the adults involved in the activities you mention like schools,nurseries,sports clubs etc are now monitored and checked much more strictly than before regarding any offences or concerns regarding children.I now have to be police checked on a yearly basis by my PCT and things like this will make it much harder for people to slip through the net.

 

Not saying it's perfect by any means but it's better.

[Sheplover]

Children do need to be independent and to have some responsibility for themselves, they'll never get that if they're over protected. I had a friend at school who's parents were very protective and strict. On the other hand, my mum was really relaxed with my brother and me, we were left to fend for ourselves overnight from being about 14 or 15 (my brother's 3 years older though). My friend was pregnant and had an abortion at 14 and never told her parents, while my brother went on to do very well academically, and is now in a highly paid job in a stable relationship with a baby and another on the way. I think he benefited immensely from having responsibilities from an early age.

I think it would be a bit naieve to say that it is purely because this girl had overprotective parents that her life fell into difficulty. I can produce annecdotle evidence of a friend whose parents were open and less restirctive than my own and she was thrown out at 16, abortion at 18 and now only has GCSEs and is in a low paid job, whereas another friend whose parents were very strict has a degree from UCL and has just come back from travelling around the world for a year all paid for by her own savings from temping for a year after uni.

 

I think the little girl in the Algarve's parents were extremely irresponsible, I just hope she is found safe and well

[Happylittlegreensquirrel]

I am not by any stretch of the imagination a normal mother and Aislings upbringing has not been "conventional" in many areas so I am not the best person to give a balanced view on this subject. In the last 8 months I have spent 3 months living in another country away from my daughter and that would ( and has ) been commented on and judged by a lot of people as neglectful/selfish/bad parenting etc.

 

I can't remember when Aisling was first allowed to go into public places on her own, travel on buses or stay in the house unattended. I do know I did make a conscious decision with her and we worked together on each thing. For example she had travelled on buses with my mother for years, so first she had to ask for and buy her own ticket , then she was taken to the bus stop and put on the bus ( and met at the other end ) before being allowed to do the whole journey unattended. I have encouraged her to be as independent as our environment and her abilities allow and that involves us spending time together and apart ( for both our sakes ! ) and it works for us

 

Looking back I never left Aisling alone at 2/3 in a hotel room not for any real fear of abduction more as others have said because she was still totally dependant on me at that age for everything ( toilet, food, getting dressed, hygiene ) at that age at home we still had a stair gate at the top of the stairs and locks on the outside of the bathroom door to prevent her gaining access in case she she got out of bed in the middle of the night

 

I do think it was a huge error of judgement on this couples part to leave such small children unattended and I don't understand why they did with the information that has been presented in the media but I think bad parenting and neglect comes in many forms

[Mrs Mop]

My sons were brought up to be independent and also to look after themselves, wash, iron cook etc. but they were never left at 3 years old. There is a big difference in teaching children to be independent and leaving a toddlers alone.

 

In yesterday's paper it says that Madeleine's parents may face charges because it is illegal to leave a child alone in Portugal.

[phoenix21]

My mum asked me about this today - if they ever left us when we were little and the only time we could think of was when we had weekends away and the hotel did not allow kids in the dining room (i was around 6/7 and my sister 9/10 at the time) so we stayed asleep in the hotel room upstairs. Obivously my heart goes out to the poor parents who must be going though hell but i would not leave 2 18mth year olds and a 3yr old on their own.

 

When i was young we played out with our friends on the road on bikes and go karts etc- i would have been 5/6 but it was a small cul de sac and we knew everyone on the road. We lived in a small market town and I was allowed to go into town with my sister (3 yrs older) when i was 7, and go to my grandparents house on my own who live a few streets away. I think its good to give children a bit of freedom but a 3 yr olds version of freedom and that of a 7-10yr olds is completely different and they should have been supervised and i would have thought even more so abroad when you dont know anyone living around you etc.

 

We can be too paranoid and overprotective of children though. I took a lady out on a ride (work for stables that centre parcs uses). She and her daughters (around 9 and 11 i think) were staying there and she said she would not let the children use their bikes unsupervised or out of the door unsupervised. She works in the police dealing with paedophiles and she said that a place like centre parcs was a prime spot for paedophiles. Fair enough but children that age should be allowed to have some freedom and experience life. You cant protect them from everything and there comes a time when you have to let go and give them independance (as said thou there is a difference between giving 3yr old freedom and 6-7yrs and up freedom!)

Edited May 7, 2007 by phoenix21