Advice Needed

[gooster]

Hi guys

 

Have not posted for a while, but could really do with some advice over a really difficult decision I am having to make.

 

As you may be aware, last year I took on a 10 month old JRT called Wilf. Him and Charliegoo have always had somewhat of a rough relationship, resulting in a few fights over the last 18 months or so. However they have always been quite minor, and just bruised egos resulted.

 

A couple of weeks ago, they had a huge fight. I was walking them, and we were playing with the frisbee. I threw it and it landed in a cowpat and Charliegoo followed it, straight into the cowpat too So I decided to go down to the river to wash him off before heading for home. Then they just broke out into a huge fight (thankfully the other 3 stayed out of the way), they just wouldn't stop and it took me ages to separate them, but then Wilf went in and locked onto Charliegoo's shoulder joint. It was only then that I managed to get Wilf off Charliegoo and stop them fighting. Charliegoo had bitten Wilf's face and ears, and Charliegoo's leg is a real mess. I instantly decided that Wilf was going to have to be rehomed, as it shook me up that much. However the longer it goes on, the more I think I have failed him, and the more stringent I become with where he can go.

 

So far I have no kids, no other dogs, no cats, no small furries, noone who works all day, noone who hasn't had a dog before, the list goes on and on. Everytime someone comes up with a suggestion of a new home, I find some reason why they aren't suitable. Wilf is a curious little creature, and quite growly. He has only bitten me once, and that was when I first homed him and he had cut his foot. You can be cuddling him though, and he will just start growling at you for no reason. He will also wander round the house growling at nothing! So he needs a very special home that understands him like I do, but without any dogs!!

 

I honestly don't know whether to keep him for now, keep all toys out of the way and see how he goes, or let him go to someone who can love him a lot more than I can. I have never had the same bond with Wilf as I do with Charliegoo and Eddie.

 

Has anyone ever been in this situation before, and how did you cope?

 

Thanks

 

 

[Mrs Mop]

Whatever you decide to do you are going to have to manage them so they don't get the chance to fight again, each time they fight it is worse and more damage will be done and one day you may end up with a dog killed.

 

How I managed Gracie and Joe, Gracie wanted to kill him when she first arrived, was to have one in a crate and one out, they used the same crate so change over could be a bit hairy but by keeping doors closed it worked.

 

At the moment their stress levels will be very high and before you do anything else with them you need to let these come down to normal, this can take as long as 28 days so I done nothing with Gracie and Joe for that first 28 days.

 

I walked both dogs seperately so they didn't get a chance when out to fight.

 

After the 28 days was up, as Gracie was the instigator of the fights I had Joe loose at the other end of the room and bring Gracie out on a lead, kept her next to me all evening.

 

It was very slow work, I had to go at their pace even though it was hard at times but it paid off, There are no guarentees that these 2 will be fine together but I wouldn't take that chance, good management is needed now to stop any future fights. Gracie and Joe were never left alone together for about a year.

 

By having good management in place, it will also give you the time needed to work out if you want to rehome or not, if you do, it will give you time to find the right home.

 

With any dog problem, good management has to be put in place first before trying to work through the problem.

 

Having been through something similar, I can understand how you are feeling, are you doing the right thing, what is the right thing to do, etc. You really need space to let your stress levels come down as well so you can make a decision that is best for all of you.

[mum24dog]

For 5 years I have had to keep 2 of mine apart and it isn't fair on any of the dogs not being able to come and go as they want.

After the last fight (entirely my fault) I decided one would have to be rehomed and eventually he found a lovely new home.

Peace reigned and everyone, human and canine alike, breathed a sigh of relief.

No feeling of failure or betrayal because I knew it was for the best for the dog that had gone too.

Unfortunately he is back after 5 weeks because he got hysterical when left alone as he never had been before. I don't think I'll try it again as the result would probably be the same so we'll just have to carry on managing the situation.

 

I'd spread the word amongst your doggy friends (you've probably done that already) and sit back and wait. Prepare a detailed info sheet with everything you think a prospective owner would need to know (warts and all).

 

Don't rush into anything and see what comes up. People lose older dogs all the time and don't always want little pups tp replace them.

 

Pam

[merledogs]

I know it's hard but I firmly believe in these situations we have to put what we want aside and do what is best for the dogs (all of them).

 

I have lived with a situation for two years where we had to keep two dogs separated and it is stressful for all concerned (dogs and people). The dogs were unhappy and constantly stressed because they were obviously aware of the situation and the only reason we continued was because my ex OH and I had split up and he was taking his dog with him when he went (it took me that long to get rid of him ). It was such a huge relief when it was over.

 

It is not a situation I would ever put my dogs or myself through again, so IMO by rehoming him, you are doing what's best for Wilf and for your other dogs.

 

But it's hard I know, so have a

[Jacobean]

It's hard to know with not seeing what happens and the situations involved.

 

The little lad in my avatar came here on foster last March having been a little naughty. He walked in here and decided he was going to eat all my dogs straight off. We had to keep them separated for quite some time and thankfully have the room to do this so that dogs don't have to meet each other at all if needs be. As time wore on he calmed down and realised they weren't going to harm him. With him he was defensive and still is in some situations. If he is at all wary he will attack. We persevered and kept trying them together but watching like hawks and never leaving them alone together. Over time things improved. Food and toys together were the next no no after us being able to have them in a room together. Now they sit nicely in a line waiting for us to give them a treat or bit of food. They play well with toys with no mistakes. I now allow them to play fight it's become that good. It's maybe been this good since about August this year so has taken nearly 18 months. I still won't leave them together if I go out but can if I need to go have a shower for half an hour. Which is another huge leap.

 

I never thought this would work out as Scooby to me was just a vicious dog towards others. He's still a little mardy beggar when we take him out with other dogs although we've seen him show interest a bit more of late and he did actually start playing with a chihuahua last week. I guess it depends why they are like that and what triggers the behaviour. The time was right for us going through this as I was home all the time so could spend lots of time with each of the dogs so none missed out. Would I do this again? Would I hell. I'm really pleased with my 3 boys now and it's lovely to see them playing and him understanding the others that little bit more each week.

 

 

I got some really good advice from a behaviourist along the way. It was scary keep trying them together at times but it was always very controlled so that any sign of anything we could stamp on it straight away. It's not easy and it unsettles the whole pack. One of mine absolutely hated Scooby for a while and he was definitely being rehomed. He's a lucky little lad as his 2 bruvvers love him to bits and dote on him now.

 

I guess some of it depends why he is the way he is and if there is somthing that triggers it. Good luck whatever you decide to do.

[gooster]

Thanks for the replies guys.

I have tried to find reason behind the fights, Charliegoo has even had blood tests to see if there is anything physically wrong with him that Wilf may be picking up on, but they came back clear.

They had another fight tonight - there was no trigger this time either. Normally there will be food or a toy involved but tonight there was nothing. Wilf just launched at Charliegoo and latched onto Charliegoo's leg which was healing nicely after last time. I have pretty much decided now that this can't continue, and am now actively seeking a home for the little guy. One lady has been interested since I first started pondering what to do, so am going to speak to her, and find out if she has had dogs before etc.

 

 

[mooandboo]

Have you had Wilf's thyroid checked? I only ask because I've read elsewhere of a dog being aggressive for seemingly no reason and its thyroid was out of balance - might be worth checking if only to rule it out.

 

Harry and Lucas have an iffy relationship - Lucas bit Harry's leg so badly once that the vet thought it was broken, thankfuly it wasn't but I do understand the stress involved and you have to do what you feel is right - good luck

[mole]

I would definitely rehome Wilf. In my opinion the fights will only get worse and it just isn't fair on Charliegoo.

 

I had a big Staff from a bad home (Buster) on foster and he was dog aggressive but was OK with my two (one male ..Bruno .. and one old female) to begin with ... but he never took to Bruno (who is very friendly and has dog savvy body language and is never pushy). I used management a lot as I only have a small house ... crating Buster at night or tieing him up till he was used to my dogs. Buster had a couple of goes at Bruno where he pinned him down but nothing major but it ended up with him really attacking Bruno after he'd been with me 11 months just cos Bruno dared to be running around on a walk. He really did a lot of damage and I couldn't get him off. It was very scary.

 

I kept him because I felt really sorry for him and nobody wanted him and he'd come from a home where his owner had been banned from keeping a dog and to be truthful, I did love him very much, but looking back I should not have done it as Bruno changed from a happy little dog to one who was scared to do anything in case Buster took offence at it. It has taken Bruno ages to get back to actually playing and running close to another dog.

 

These things simmer on and I now know that I put Bruno through a high level of constant stress for a long time without taking his needs into consideration as much as I was taking Buster's needs.

 

Just my experience.

[phoebejo]

I'm lucky in that I can still see my Zara in her new home, I saw her just two days ago and I can honestly say she's never been happier. She is the only animal in her house and having all that attention suits her down to the ground. I miss her and I love her so much and wish things could have been different but it was the best thing for her. Wilf will be happier elsewhere where he can totally chill out and not have to worry about other dogs being around him. And you and your dogs will be happier too. I know how upsetting it is

[gooster]

Thanks for the replies guys. We are now crating Wilf when we are out, as we just don't trust him with Charliegoo now. From speaking to my dad about what happened last night, Wilf kept trying to go back for more when they managed to split them up, so he ended up being thrown out into the garden whilst they tried to sort Charliegoo out.

From speaking to a close friend of the lady who is interested, apparently he won't get walked and she will lose interest after 6 months and then he will be rehomed again. Wherever he goes, it has to be forever, and the owner will have to understand that he cannot live with another dog or kids ever.

Am going to try and contact the rescue he came from and see if they are happy for me to home him, or whether they want to take him back.

Thanks for the thyroid suggestion, I doubt it is that though, as he is only 2, and a very healthy, energetic JRT!! He excels at flyball, and is a cracking little dog apart from beating up Charliegoo

[mooandboo]

 

 

Thanks for the thyroid suggestion, I doubt it is that though, as he is only 2, and a very healthy, energetic JRT!! He excels at flyball, and is a cracking little dog apart from beating up Charliegoo

Young dogs can be affected - see bold section of quote below. I just thought it might be worth checking as if he is affected it's treatable and may improve his chances of being rehomed

 

BIZARRE BEHAVIORAL CHANGES? CHECK YOUR

 

DOG FOR HYPOTHYROIDISM

 

By W. Jean Dodds, DVM

 

As published in Dog World Vol. 77 No. 10, October 1992

 

 

 

Abnormal behavior in dogs can have a variety of medical causes; it also can reflect underlying problems of a psychological nature. Your veterinarian follows a systematic diagnostic approach in searching for medical causes when a per exhibits unusual or unacceptable behavior. As summarized by Landsberg (Canadian Veterinary Journal, 31:225-227, 1990), this includes:

1) a complete patient history;

2) clinical examination and a neurological work-up;

3) routine laboratory testing of complete blood count, blood biochemistry and thyroid profiles, urinalysis, fecal exam and X-ray;

4) additional specific laboratory tests as indicated (e.g., other hormonal tests, bile acids, blood ammonia, glucose tolerance, immunological assays and tests for toxins, fungi and other infections;

5) examination of cerebral spinal fluid; and

6) more specialized neurological examinations such as an electroencephalography and computerized axial tomography scan.

 

Diagnostic steps 1 through 3 are usually completed first; additional tests such as steps 4 through 6 are performed if indicated. If these test results prove to be negative, a veterinary behavior consultant or qualified pet behavior therapist should evaluate the dog.

 

Inheritance has been shown to play an important part in the behavior of both animals and humans; Plomin recently reviewed its role (Science, 248:183-188, 1990). The genetic influence on behavioral disorders rarely accounts for more than half of the phenotypic expression of behavioral differences. Each of the multiple genes involved has a small effect on behavior. Newer techniques in molecular biology should permit the identification of the genetic DNA marker sequences responsible for behavioral variation.

 

However, behavior is the most complex phenotype because it not only reflects the functioning of the whole organism, but it is dynamic and changes in response to environmental influences. With respect to animal behavior, applied behavioral genetics first was studied several thousand years ago because animals were bred and selected for their behavior as much as their conformation. The results can be attested to by the dramatic differences in behavior and physique among various dog breeds. Today these breeds have a great range of genetic and behavioral variability.

 

In recent years, many investigators have noted the sudden onset of behavioral changes in dogs around the time of puberty. Most of the dogs have been purebreds or crossbreds with an apparent predilection for certain breeds (e.g., Golden Retrievers, Shetland Sheepdogs, German Shepherds, Cocker Spaniels, Akitas, Doberman Pincschers and Rottweilers). Many of these dogs also had begun to show the seasonal effects of allergies to inhalants and ectoparasites such as fleas, followed by the onset of skin and coat disorders, including pyoderma, allergic dermatitis, alopecia and intense itching.

 

A typical history starts out with a quiet, well-mannered and sweet natured puppy. The dog is outgoing, has attended puppy training classes to prepare for obedience, working or show events, and comes from a reputable breeder whose kennel has no history of behavioral problems.

 

However, at the onset of puberty, which varies from seven months to a year in age, sudden major changes in personality are observed. Typical signs may include incessant whining, nervousness, schizoid behavior, fear in the presence of strangers, hyperventilation, undue sweating, occasional disorientation and failure to be attentive. These can progress to sudden unprovoked aggressiveness in unfamiliar situations with other animals and with people, especially children.

 

The owners may attribute the problems to the sex hormonal changes accompanying puberty or just the uncertainties of adolescent development. Often these animals are neutered, which appears to alleviate the behavioral problems, specifically the aggression, for varying lengths of time. For a significant proportion of these animals, however, neutering does not alter the symptoms and they intensify progressively to the point that the adult can be described as flaky, unable to handle any kind of stress, frantically circling, hyperventilating and not able to settle down. Animals used for field work and tracking often fail to follow the scent, whereas those in obedience training may lose the scent articles. Their powers of concentration are often very short and so dogs that were training very successfully at obedience appear to lag behind in a disinterested fashion. With all of these changes in behavior, the problem of most concern is unwarranted aggression. When large breeds are affected it poses a significant hazard to family members, friends and strangers.

 

In some cases affected animals do not show aggression but become very shy and fearful to the point that they are social outcasts and do not make acceptable house pets. These animals clearly are not suitable for show, obedience or working purposes. Some of these dogs will show extremely submissive behavior, roll over and urinate upon being approached.

 

The third group of dogs showing aberrant behavior consists of those that experience seizure or seizure-like disorders beginning in puberty and continuing to mid-life. These are dogs that appear perfectly healthy outwardly and have normal hair coats and energy, but suddenly experience seizures for no apparent reason. The seizures are often spaced several weeks to months apart, and occasionally they appear in a brief cluster. In some cases the animals become aggressive and attack those around them shortly before or after having one of these seizure episodes.

 

The number of dogs showing various types of abnormal behavior in these three classical modes (aggression, extreme shyness or seizure-like activity) has been increasing over the last decade. Veterinary colleagues have remarked that in recent years some young dogs have become completely unacceptable because of bizarre, sudden behavioral changes. Consequently, we began to examine these animals by using the stepwise diagnostic approach outlined previously. The importance of performing complete laboratory profiles in the blood and urine, with specific emphasis on thyroid hormonal function was stressed.

 

We were surprised to find that in many of the cases studied, significant abnormalities were found in the thyroid profile. Some cases also had changes in the liver enzyme patterns, specifically with abnormal increases in pre and post meal bile acids and elevated gamma glutamyl transerase levels. About 10 percent of these young dogs had abnormalities of the liver profile and a few also had changes in renal function. For the majority, however, the primary abnormality was attributable to abnormal thyroid function. This thyroid dysfunction would classically express high levels of T3 and T4 autoantibodies with an artifactual, apparent elevation of total T3 level. It would not be uncommon to find circulating total T3 levels that read as much as 3,000 to 5,000 nanograms per deciliter. While not all of the affected animals had documented evidence of T3 and T4 autoantibodies, some of these had positive antithyroglobulin antibody tests. In either event, the diagnosis was confirmed as autoimmune thyroiditis.

The autoimmune thyroid disease present in these patients apparently is inducing some type of physiological change at the cellular lever, which leads to the aberrant behavior. This supposition can be made with some assurance because treatment of thyroiditis of these dogs with appropriate doses of thyroid replacement hormone given twice daily along with a one-month tapering course of low-dose corticosteroids, has successfully reversed the behavioral problems within four to eight weeks. Dramatic changes in behavior have been recognized in a few cases as early as after 10 days of therapy.

 

By contrast, it usually takes five to seven months of thyroid replacement therapy to effect complete disappearance of the circulating antithyroid antibodies. These dogs should be maintained for life on the appropriate dose of thyroid hormone, which may need to be adjusted periodically.

 

Another subset of affected dogs consists of those that do not have demonstrable antithyroid antibodies but have baseline thyroid profiles that are clearly abnormal. In these cases, levels of total T4, total T3, free T4 and free T3 are usually well below the lowest limits of the adult normal ranges or are in the low normal or borderline ranges. The latter situation is of particular significance in young dogs of nine to 15 months of age. When these dogs are treated with standard doses of thyroid replacement therapy (0.1 milliliter per 10 pound of body weight, given twice daily) the clinical signs associated with abnormal behavior rapidly resolve.

 

To date (October 1992) more than 25 animals have been diagnosed as having thyroid imbalance as the major, if not exclusive, cause of their behavioral abnormalities. Some of these animals have been followed for as long as three years and are still exhibiting anormal behavior. Animals on therapy have returned successfully to obedience activities, completed show championships and undertaken active field and tracking work.

 

Here are two case studies as examples:

 

In the first, a four-year-old male Akita, weighing 110 pounds, suddenly attacked his owner and bit her in the face. The dog had been owned by the same family since early puppyhood and had been a remarkably even tempered, well-behaved and non-aggressive pet with people and other animals. After seeking the advice of two different veterinary clinicians and a major teaching hospital, the owner was about to give up in despair because no physical abnormalities could be found.

 

She was referred to us by an Akita rescue group, as this pattern of behavioral change has been associated with thyroid dysfunction in the breed. A complete thyroid panel which had not been performed earlier, was suggested and the dog was found to be hypothyroid. Thyroid therapy was initiated on a twice-daily basis. The dog's exemplary temperament returned and he has not shown any unusual behavior for more than a year. An interesting additional complication of the case was a moderately severe thrombocytopenia which also resolved with low doses of alternate-day steroid therapy and thyroid medication.

 

In the second, a nine month old male Shetland Sheepdog from excellent show-quality bloodlines suddenly became frantic and fearful. Acting intermittently, as if his vision were impaired, he attacked a toddler in the owner's home. A complete physical examination was given and laboratory testing done; a routine check for T4 was borderline normal. The dog's abnormal behavior appeared to resolve, but soon reappeared.

 

After a second attack the dog had a complete thyroid profile done at Michigan State University's Animal Health Diagnostic Laboratory. The total T4 was 44 nmol/1; total T3 was 0 nmol/1; free T4 was 2 pmol/1; free T3 was >20 pmol/1; T4 autoantibody was 18 and T3 autoantibody was 85. The referring veterinarian did not realize that the results were consistent with autoimmune thyroiditis and the dog was not treated. Two months later the dog attacked another person and a second thyroid profile was sent to the Michigan State Laboratory. The second profile showed a total T4 of 29 nmol/1; total T3 of 0 nmol/1; free T4 of 25 pmol/1; free T3 of >20 pmol/1; T4 autoantibody of 48 and T3 autoantibody of 91. Consultation with our group was made at this point.

 

The dog had a previous history of facial demodectic mange; because corticosteroids are not recommended with demodecosis, the treatment consisted for a full therapeutic dose of T4 thyroid supplement at 0.1 milligram per 10 pounds and a one-third dose of T3 thyroid supplement at 1 microgram per pound, both given twice daily. The rationale for treating with both T4 and T3 supplements in this case was to attempt to normalize the thyroid axis as quickly as possible to avoid danger to family members. At the time of this writing the dog's behavioral aggression has subsided.

 

For those animals that show occasional seizure disorders, thyroid medication alone usually will suffice. Anticonvulsant medication is needed along with the thyroid therapy to control cases with more severe seizure clusters. The anticonvulsants of choice would be phenobarbital or, alternatively, sodium bromide, particularly if the patient has abnormalities of liver function.

 

Because many of these animals have autoimmune thyroid disease, concomitant medical management includes avoiding environmental factors that can further challenge the immune system. This means placing the animal on a hypoallergenic "natural" diet preserved with vitamins E and C (e.g., lamb and rice based lower-protein kibble without added chemical preservatives); avoiding drugs such as the potentiated sulfonamide antibiotics and monthly heartworm preventatives that may adversely affect the immune system in these susceptible dogs; and withholding vaccination boosters until the thyroid function is balanced properly and the behavioral abnormalities are resolved. If animals are due for annual vaccine boosters during this period, vaccine antibody titers for distemper and parvovirus can be determined.

 

If your otherwise healthy young or adult dog experiences sudden behavioral changes, you should consult your vet and check for an underlying thyroid imbalance as shown by:

 

1) The presence of thyroid autoantibodies

 

2) Low or borderline levels of total T4, total T2 and Free T4 or

 

3) Failure to triple baseline total T4 levels in response to challenge with thyroid-stimulating hormone.

 

In our experience, the most predictive thyroid test parameters to identify these cases are 1 and 2, because the thyroid stimulating hormone response test just measures thyroid reserve, which remains adequate in the early stages of thyroid disease.

[mooandboo]

Wanted to add, I don't know the validity of the article quoted (it is old) I just quoted it to show that young dogs can be affected by thyroid imbalances

[mum24dog]

Wanted to add, I don't know the validity of the article quoted (it is old) I just quoted it to show that young dogs can be affected by thyroid imbalances

 

I don't think you need worry. Jean Dodds is an acknowleded expert on the subject.

 

However, Wilf's behaviour doesn't sound that abnormal to me for a Jack Russell (and I have one myself).

 

Pam

[gooster]

Thanks for the article - interesting reading.

 

Wilf has been assessed by the RSPCA today (dad is friends with one of their inspectors), and he is going to be put on their website. They also have a lady who has had JRT for years who is interested in him.

 

They have had more fights over the last few days, they had 2 on Friday where Wilf just locked onto Charliegoo's leg and wouldn't let go. He always attacks from behind so Charliegoo can't protect himself. The last fight they had Wilf had a muzzle on, but managed to get that off and attack again. Wilf is now staying at my parents and I have Charliegoo and Eddie back until Wilf is rehomed. Charlie has gone from a happy dog to being fearful in his own home.

[gooster]

Well, Wilf's post has gone onto the RSPCA website for our local branch. They have put that he is ok with other dogs, and the reason we are rehoming him is because we don't have the time for him!!! Talk about making us sound like rubbish owners!! Dad has emailed them with suggested alternate wording for his post. If they don't change it, I will be looking for another rescue to help!!