purple_mog Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 Adults who kill other people should spend their lives in prison, sadly they don't. Why? I'm not being deliberately difficult, but I struggle to see how just locking people up actually benefits society in any sense. I agree these particular people have perpetrated awful crimes, and doubt that three years even if it was about rehabilitation, would be sufficient, but don't see the point of just locking people up? Personally I don't agree with death sentences, but equally if these people are to be alive, then we need to do *something*? Just my feelings, but when any member of a society can do such things, perhaps it points to failings beyond that individual? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 There are some who walk amongst us who look like us, but who are not like us, they have no concept of right or wrong, no compassion, no empathy, no moral compass, our laws do not apply to them, we are their prey and they have nothing but contempt for us. Because they look like us we treat them like us, we expect them to think and to feel as we do, and when they do things which we find repugnant or difficult to comprehend we seek reasons for their behaviour, we find ways to justify what they do because to accept that they did it simply because they felt like it, or enjoyed it is to admit that these people are not people, they are evil monsters and we don't like to think that there are monsters in this world, monsters live under the bed or in the back of dark cupboards, they are the stuff of childhood fears and grown adults know better than to believe in them. Because we don't believe in monsters we try to believe that everyone can be "helped" or "saved" that their background, their own experiences, that life, made them the way that they are and we just have to find the right key to unlock their compassion, to teach them right from wrong and they will take their place amongst us as the true human beings they are deep down. I'm afraid I believe in monsters, I believe firmly that there is a sub species of humans who are NOTHING like us, they cannot be helped to see the error of their ways because their ways are perfectly natural and normal for them - they are sociopaths, if they had 3 eyes or horns on their heads or were purple with yellow spots it would be far easier for us to see them as a quite separate species and be able to deal with them accordingly, but because when we look at them we see ourselves we will always be at a disadvantage when dealing with them. For some locking them up until they die in prison is the ONLY way to keep others safe, it's not about rehabilitation, or punishment, or retribution, it's about protecting people from the monsters. In the case of baby Peters mother - I don't have access to her case files, I have absolutely NO idea what she was dealing with living with the monster who killed her child, she has been judged by a panel of her and my peers and sentenced under the law and that is as much as we can ask for. In the case of the killer - from everything I have read and heard he is a monster who should NEVER be allowed to roam free again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudi Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 In response to Purple Mog (can't find any way of replying with a quote or with smilies etc - really not liking this new website) I think people should be locked up for life purely so they are out of society. No other reason. Prison should be reserved for people who commit serious crimes, not credit card fraudsters and taking a life should mean the loss of one's own and if there's no death sentence, then life in prison. I don't think rehabilitation even comes into it. I don't know what you mean by any member of society can do these things. I can't. People are responsible for their own actions, there are loads of people out there with horror stories for lives and they don't kill babies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chickentikka Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 Rudi do you just see black and white or agree that there are varying degrees of murder/manslaughter, you said that adults who kill other people should spend their life in prison. Do you think that an abused partner who 'snaps', or someone who has lashed out in temper or perhaps assisted suicide in someone terminally ill or driven badly and knocked someone over or caused a car crash deserves to spend the whole of the rest of their life in prison and be treated with the same contempt as those scum. I've done some more reasearch and reading and my nightmare is true, he probably abused all her kids with her knowledge and consent - and she was certainly no cowering battered woman living in fear and is just as much of a monster as he is, shame that the trials couldn't have been linked. Monsters can bring out the monster in a kindred spirit - Ian Brady and Myra Hindley, Fred and Rosemary West. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merledogs Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 There are some who walk amongst us who look like us, but who are not like us, they have no concept of right or wrong, no compassion, no empathy, no moral compass, our laws do not apply to them, we are their prey and they have nothing but contempt for us. Because they look like us we treat them like us, we expect them to think and to feel as we do, and when they do things which we find repugnant or difficult to comprehend we seek reasons for their behaviour, we find ways to justify what they do because to accept that they did it simply because they felt like it, or enjoyed it is to admit that these people are not people, they are evil monsters and we don't like to think that there are monsters in this world, monsters live under the bed or in the back of dark cupboards, they are the stuff of childhood fears and grown adults know better than to believe in them. Because we don't believe in monsters we try to believe that everyone can be "helped" or "saved" that their background, their own experiences, that life, made them the way that they are and we just have to find the right key to unlock their compassion, to teach them right from wrong and they will take their place amongst us as the true human beings they are deep down. I'm afraid I believe in monsters, I believe firmly that there is a sub species of humans who are NOTHING like us, they cannot be helped to see the error of their ways because their ways are perfectly natural and normal for them - they are sociopaths, if they had 3 eyes or horns on their heads or were purple with yellow spots it would be far easier for us to see them as a quite separate species and be able to deal with them accordingly, but because when we look at them we see ourselves we will always be at a disadvantage when dealing with them. For some locking them up until they die in prison is the ONLY way to keep others safe, it's not about rehabilitation, or punishment, or retribution, it's about protecting people from the monsters. In the case of baby Peters mother - I don't have access to her case files, I have absolutely NO idea what she was dealing with living with the monster who killed her child, she has been judged by a panel of her and my peers and sentenced under the law and that is as much as we can ask for. In the case of the killer - from everything I have read and heard he is a monster who should NEVER be allowed to roam free again. Spot on Snow in everything you said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fee4 Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 Snow i fully understand where you are coming from. As you know I have worked in prisons/secure units and with the mentally ill. For me the most frightening aspect is not that there is some sub species of human-a sort of invasion of the body snatchers kind of thing-but rather a continuum of behaviours....as such i think "Evil" is within all of us-its how we manage ourselves in society the fact that i dont believe in Evil as a seperate existance-but rather think that that the cruel/sadistic/immoral is down to a mixture of genetics/poor parenting/poor education and Choice. I dont think everyone can be made to fit in or even understand or care what consequence their behaviour has (i dont think of saved-too many religious overtones) There are a few who can be helped-some who with time and learning can change-but a good proportion cant and wont-and for them i beleiev that prison is the best place. In fact many of this type feel happier/safer in prison as it has a clear regime/limited choices/very clear boundaries etc I do think we should have prisons that are designed for Life: and those who work with prisoners who can/want to be rehabilitated: it may make me sound like a bleeding heart-something anyone who knows me will tell you is far from the truth! But i do believe that some of those who come through the door deserve a second chance Fiona Ps Just re-read your post. Are you referring to those with personality/psychopathic disorders diectly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathyw Posted August 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 I believe that if you take a life then you should forfeit your own and as we don't have the death pemalty then it should be life in prison - no parole. The question of varying degrees of murder - I don't know - the battered spouse finally hits back too hard and kills - self-defence maybe but they took a life - some sort of sentence should apply - not life but certainly something more than a few years. The question should be what is the likelyhood of this person killing again? If the answer is a high possibility then life in prison till they die. Why risk another life just so they can have freedom. I do think that everyone has the capacity to take anothers life in a certain set of circumstances but thankfully we rarely encounter that set of circumstances. But I also think that there are people who have no qualms about taking another person life in any circumstances and we must be protected from them. I also consider child sex abusers too high a risk to allow freedom to. They cannot be rehabilitated and will offend again as soon as there is a chance. All non-violent crime can be dealt with in many ways that do not involve prison time. Keep the prisons for the killers. Child killers - sterilised and put in prison for life - no set of circumstances can excuse that crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 Snow i fully understand where you are coming from. As you know I have worked in prisons/secure units and with the mentally ill. For me the most frightening aspect is not that there is some sub species of human-a sort of invasion of the body snatchers kind of thing-but rather a continuum of behaviours....as such i think "Evil" is within all of us-its how we manage ourselves in society the fact that i dont believe in Evil as a seperate existance-but rather think that that the cruel/sadistic/immoral is down to a mixture of genetics/poor parenting/poor education and Choice. I dont think everyone can be made to fit in or even understand or care what consequence their behaviour has (i dont think of saved-too many religious overtones) There are a few who can be helped-some who with time and learning can change-but a good proportion cant and wont-and for them i beleiev that prison is the best place. In fact many of this type feel happier/safer in prison as it has a clear regime/limited choices/very clear boundaries etc I do think we should have prisons that are designed for Life: and those who work with prisoners who can/want to be rehabilitated: it may make me sound like a bleeding heart-something anyone who knows me will tell you is far from the truth! But i do believe that some of those who come through the door deserve a second chance Fiona Ps Just re-read your post. Are you referring to those with personality/psychopathic disorders diectly? Yes Fee I am - those few and reassuringly they are few in proportion to society as a whole, who in previous decades would have been termed sociopaths but these days fall under the anti social personality disorder umbrella (a bad move imo as that umbrella is too wide ranging and a label far to easily applied when not appropriate, moreover lots of people would term themselves as "anti social" meaning they are grumpy old gits - like me lol and yet they bare absolutely NO resemblance to the types of monsters I'm talking about. ) Sociopaths as distinct from Psychopaths are a different species - I agree with you that there is a continium of learned behaviour/conditioning and very much choice involved for a lot in our prisons and mental health facilities which society shys away from confronting some of these people can be "helped", some don't WANT to be helped because they are perfectly happy the way they see themselves and the world around them, but I also beleive that there are some we cannot help in any way because they are exactly what they are supposed to be already and those people are the ones society needs protecting from. Totally agree about the separate prisons issue too - they are a danger to everyone, including their fellow inmates, moreover we should be targetting resources to those who might choose to be helped rather than tryiing to help those who can't be helped or won't be helped. I'm no bleeding heart, but neither am I a put em all down lock em up throw away they key person either, I try hard to be a realist and to accept that there are those who we will always struggle to deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 the fact that i dont believe in Evil as a seperate existance-but rather think that that the cruel/sadistic/immoral is down to a mixture of genetics/poor parenting/poor education and Choice. To me there is a difference between Evil and the cruel/sadistic/immoral - one can possibly be influenced by earlier parenting, re-learning etc but evil is in my opinion unchangeable & goes well beyond poor parenting - there are many who have a hard upbringing that don't go on to abuse or murder children for example. It intrigued me that some of you don't seem to believe in locking people up for life, nor the death penalty & yet there is the question / doubt about the release of a terroist on another thread - following the line of argument here why doesn't he deserve compassion too? (not that I believe he does deserve compassion myself) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fee4 Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Ian-i dont believe in "Evil" as i think it has too many religious associations. To be Evil is to be labelled as other-not us-seperate. were all OK -the Evil ones are out there....something to be afraid of in the wee small hours of the night I think those that commit such acts -are not other-but are actually frighteningly close to me-that i find far more scary. i dont see Evil as unchanging-thats why such people who act in this fashion are so frightening-1 moment theyre having tea with you, discussing the cricket-the next battering someone to death-for me its the very changability that makes it so awful-if they were unrelentingly Evil then we would be able to spot them a mile off-. EG i worked with a chap who have very, very brutally killed someone/s (details not included to avoid identification) in the prison i worked in -he rehabilitated numerous small birds found exhausted on their way to the nature reserve-and was a Listener (prisoner trained in suicide prevention-a role in which he was outstanding) I considered him one of the most dangerous men i worked with as he totally believed he had acted in an acceptable manner-and would/could not see anything wrong with his actions.....given a different set of circumstances from his incarceration-i have no doubt he would of killed again But if you were a small exhausted bird-he was a life saver.... fee as for the bomber-need to refresh my memory on the details before answering Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura_E Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Unfortunately this is not an isolated incident. Hundreds of children in the UK suffer very similar fates every year, but only a few cases attract the attention of the media. I think the fact that this happened in Haringey so soon after the Victoria Climbie case is an integral factor in all the media interest. I am in no way trying to play down the gravity of this awful crime, but there are people up and down the country that will also be released after serving just a few years for committing equally as Heinous crimes, but because their pictures aren’t plastered all over the newspapers, they will slip back into society completely undetected. These two are far less likely to re-offend than all the other abusive and neglectful parents in this country, as they will be monitored for the rest of their lives. Admittedly, this monitoring will be to ensure their safety, not the publics, but such heavy surveillance will make it almost impossible for them to have the opportunity to re-offend. Having said all of that, I fully believe that these scum bags should remain behind bars for the rest of their lives- and that is purely from a punishment perspective. I also think that all cases should be judged on an individual basis. You can’t compare these two to a battered spouse that finally flips; they abused a helpless and innocent child over a sustained period of time, deriving pleasure from his misery. There’s no comparison. However, I don’t believe that prison should be reserved just for murderers and sex offenders. I worked in a prison for many years and can say with absolute conviction that the most difficult ones to manage were in for drug and gang related crimes. They were generally the most abusive, difficult, and time consuming inmates to deal with. They were also the ones most likely to assault other inmates and staff. Murderers and sex offenders generally try to minimize the amount of contact that they have with the general prison population out of fear for their safety, particularly high profile ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 I think those that commit such acts -are not other-but are actually frighteningly close to me-that i find far more scary. So you really believe that you / we are close to say Ian Huntley, Myra Hindley, Ian Brady or Robert Tozer (see link)for example? http://www.thisishullandeastriding.co.uk/news/Court-hears-neighbour-admit-killing/article-1263975-detail/article.html No religious connotation for me but regardless of upbringing etc I can't accept that at no point did these people even remotely know that what they were doing was wrong - and in my opinion evil The immoral, the petty criminal, even perhaps those temporarily out of control such as crimes of passion I could accept can be worked with but not the likes of the above & with the benefits of science / DNA to erradicate risks of miscarriages of justice I'm afraid I'd have no hesitation in giving such people a one way ticket to their grave or for those that believe in it hell. If you do you do, I guess we may just have to agree to disagree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fee4 Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 But the point I am trying to make Ian is that they often do know that you and i "Society" will see what they are doing are wrong in our eyes-but they still continue. now i know this is taking the statement to an uncomfortable place-but go with me. Today i drove too fast-at least 15 miles over the speed limit-now i know i shouldnt, i know most people wouldnt approve-but i did it, cant say im that bothered if others think what i did was wrong, i got away with it-and in all likelihood I will do it again. the thought process & emotion i have just described for Me is frighteningly close to that of the personality disorder i wanted it-i got it-sod the consequences and/or your opinion. i dont get my thrills torturing small children or animals in case anyone is concerned-! But i can see the seeds of such behaviours/thinking patterns in myself. i dont believe in hell-or heaven-but i think they should remain in custody Fiona Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Not sure why that's an uncomfortable place - actually I thought the analogy interesting - though having considered it to me there definitely is a difference - & it's probably the question of degree & intent. Eg. If someone burgled the old ladys home whilst she was out shopping I'd probably say they are immoral, unpleasant, nasty, scum, maybe even deserving of a good kicking - but probably not evil. (if she were in & in terror then they've just crossed the line) If you'd seen the child / old lady in the road, continued your course & speed, knowingly & deliberately run over (not even killed) them then I'd probably conclude you were just like the above "people" - or evil. If however you'd done something that you knew to be wrong (speeding), but had expected nothing serious to happen until it had gone suddenly & horribly wrong - you hadn't expected them to appear at that moment - then I'd probably think you had shown a serious error in judgement, would have to live with that for the rest of your life, deserved to be charged with man slaughter / banned from driving - but it wouldn't make you evil in my mind. Now I'm curious where others draw the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kats inc Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 What worries me is that if/when they get out (depending on age) they would potentially be able to have another child and do the same thing again. I doubt very much they would ever be allowed to care for another child.They will be labelled schedule one offender status for life and that will always affect their ability to be parents.We remove babies at birth for far less than what they've done so I do sincerely doubt they would ever get away with it unless they managed to totally avoid any kind of authority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts