ReikiAnge Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 be sneaky about it, say, "oooh I need one of those too, which one are you using and how much was it" blah blah blah I don't think that'd be a good approach from someone representing a rescue as H is with the homechecks and I think an honest approach with info from professionals who state these things are bad training "aids" is the best way to go. then if it's electric get the rescue involved, after all they will remain the 'owners' for life, wont they ?? I don't think they actually have a dog from rescue yet though? From reading the thread I understood the first dog wasn't from rescue and they were looking to adopt a rescue dog? I also think trying to show them why shock collars are bad is a good approach - even if they don't end up with a rescue dog, there's still their existing dog to think of Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murtle Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 Somthing like these??? http://www.ukwebpages.co.uk/deafdogs/training.htm ah, not something like those....maybe some education is needed as Cycas highlighted, we go by what we are told. Many people believe in shock collars otherwise they wouldn't sell. Don't right him off yet, just grit your teeth and go in to educate him... Good luck, but please don't alienate him (not get another dog for him) cause then he is likely to be educated by an idiot!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzycharm Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 Just wanted to add that Masterplus Collars do have a beep button these days aswell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddyboy Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 (edited) To clarify a couple of queries raised: JetCare spray collars (as used by Jed and myself) can make an noise, but that is no use to a deaf dog. They are NOT shock collars and are no crueller than a vibrating collar - in fact Jed was scared of the vibrating collar when we tried it, unless it was turned down to just a tickle when he could ignore it when out. The spray is odourless, so there is no issue about the sense of smell or breathing being affected. They are far kinder than having the dog hit by a car as they follow an escaped friend into a busy road simply because you cannot gain their attention. If Jed can see me I can sign him to come back, if not and I need him to come straight away (ie dodgy dog in distance, livestock in a field we are approaching or he is being led astray) I give a quick spray - this lasts less than a second and he comes racing back with a wagging tail - exactly the same reaction as if he sees me sign him to come back. The spray is rarely used but he has the full freedom of a dog who can hear. For more info http://www.doggiesolutions.co.uk/erol.html#6998X0 Edited July 2, 2008 by buddyboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wickychoo Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 Oh bum Helen You've got to tell the potential rescue you H/C's them for. What if they then go looking elsewhere? The sad thing is, though aversive training *can* work in some cases, its so very much dependent on the knowledge of the owner/trainer and the individual dog that it just compounds the problem in 99.9% of cases, and as Ange says, you end up with a shell of a dog instead of a happy dog who cooperates with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redditchlady Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 I remember a long time ago, not sure whether it was here or on another site that someone tried to start a database. People that were a worry regarding animals. It was data protection I think that stopped it happening. Sorry off topic, but does anyone know what happened about that. Apologies for sending it off topic. Will start new topic I think before I get a telling off Kazz xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wickychoo Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 Flippin' 'eck I just did a bit of an edit and the ether swallowed it I just wanted to clarify that I meant shock collars, I can see the benefits of other remote collars for deaf dogs. Also there's a lot of psychological literature saying that aversive training and negative reinforcement works across all species, but thats conducted in such controlled environments no-one could replicate that in the park/field etc. Besides, its a lazy way to get your dog to "behave". Shocking an animal you take into your home to love and care for seems wrong to me. Taking the time to train Tyler with positive reinforcement methods gives me so much pleasure, that one moment when he finally "gets" it and he's so pleased with himself (and normally with the sossidges too!) is what its all about (also ignoring all the times when he just blimmin' ignores me :roll eyes:!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tegk68 Posted July 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 Thanks everyone. I kept my cool as as has been mentioned, it is better that way and most likely the desire to use a shock collar came from naivity more than anything else, and wrote back to him to say it is not the rescue's policy to rehome dogs to homes that use such devices, as is the case and that taking my rescue representative hat off that I would advise him to seek out a trainer etc, then ended the email with the links you all provided. There has been no reply since but I hope he has taken note Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tegk68 Posted July 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 Just sent me this: You warned me in time then... We haven't started to use it yet. Maybe we best not. Will check out links as matter of urgency! Thanks. So thank you all for being so quick off the mark with the links and advice, much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redditchlady Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 Better news then. Well done H for being on the ball hun. Kazz xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClazUK Posted July 3, 2008 Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 Aww well done you - if you'd not gotten on to this so fast there might have been a fried dog out there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murtle Posted July 3, 2008 Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 Just sent me this: You warned me in time then... We haven't started to use it yet. Maybe we best not. Will check out links as matter of urgency! Thanks. So thank you all for being so quick off the mark with the links and advice, much appreciated. What a star you are (and all who could provide helpful hints and tips) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudi Posted July 3, 2008 Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 (edited) That's great he's going to think twice. I think shock and spray collars are sometimes (not always) used as a short cut to proper training and in some ways it's not just the device that's the issue, it's the mindset of the user. It's the attitude that the problem is the dog, when quite often it's the handler that needs to change. I think the collars can also be a short-term solution, dogs work out pretty quickly whether they are wearing one or not, so what often happens when they're used for training is that they aren't a "last resort" the dog ends up wearing it all the time and I've heard people who e-collars routinely state that once you've started with them, it's difficult to stop. They're not a substitution for more time consuming and lengthy positive methods and at least with those, the dog gets to learn for itself and work things out and then you get solid long-term changes in behaviour. I used to know a young collie puppy, she was lovely and bouncy and so pleased to see everyone and used to jump up. There are numerous positive ways of stopping dogs jumping up but her owners took her to a "behaviourist" who put a spray collar on her. In a very short time, she went from being a normal exuberant puppy to one who approached people on her belly, weeing herself. It was as cruel as if they'd beaten her. They moved and I never knew what happened to her after that, it was years ago but I remember her clearly. Edited July 3, 2008 by Rudi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReikiAnge Posted July 3, 2008 Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 I used to know a young collie puppy, she was lovely and bouncy and so pleased to see everyone and used to jump up. There are numerous positive ways of stopping dogs jumping up but her owners took her to a "behaviourist" who put a spray collar on her. In a very short time, she went from being a normal exuberant puppy to one who approached people on her belly, weeing herself. It was as cruel as if they'd beaten her. They moved and I never knew what happened to her after that, it was years ago but I remember her clearly. That's heartbreaking and what I meant earlier by reducing the dog to a shell of its former self, I'd rather have a bouncy jumping up dog for ever. The other thing that concerns me about their use, esp shock collars, is for dogs that can display aggression - not that this is relevant in H's situation - but it worries me that such collars, which punish the dog with a shock each time they react to another dog/person whatever will just push that reaction further inside rather than working with why the dog reacts in that way. That spells disaster to me, not just for the dog but for whoever happens to be around when the dog can't control itself any longer. I just can't see how that's a good way to train - certainly not to create that bond with our dog that surely we all seek? My dogs are not perfect by any means - but they ARE very happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudi Posted July 3, 2008 Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 That's heartbreaking and what I meant earlier by reducing the dog to a shell of its former self, I'd rather have a bouncy jumping up dog for ever. The other thing that concerns me about their use, esp shock collars, is for dogs that can display aggression - not that this is relevant in H's situation - but it worries me that such collars, which punish the dog with a shock each time they react to another dog/person whatever will just push that reaction further inside rather than working with why the dog reacts in that way. That spells disaster to me, not just for the dog but for whoever happens to be around when the dog can't control itself any longer. I just can't see how that's a good way to train - certainly not to create that bond with our dog that surely we all seek? My dogs are not perfect by any means - but they ARE very happy. Yeah - I'd rather have a bit naughty and happy any day! Re aggression, I've read of dogs becoming more aggressive because they associate the shock with the other dogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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