ReikiAnge Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 What I'm saying is that I don't think it's as simple to define things by choice or not. I agree Joe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClazUK Posted June 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 Agree with Joe, too. I'm pretty damn sure most gay people would dispute they have a choice about their sexuality. If we extend that logic, then hetrosexuals have a choice to abstain, too. I firmly believe you are born with your sexuality and if you choose to opress it, you face a life of misery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kittycat Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 This thread makes for some interesting reading, unfortunately I'm not articulate enough to give a credible response just wanted to reply to Claz's post Agree with Joe, too. I'm pretty damn sure most gay people would dispute they have a choice about their sexuality. If we extend that logic, then hetrosexuals have a choice to abstain, too. I firmly believe you are born with your sexuality and if you choose to opress it, you face a life of misery. I agree with you I didn't chose to be gay but I did make the choice to try and not be and I made the choice "come out" so that I don't have to live a life of misery! Although the consequences of my choice aren't always plesant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyMalc Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 Agree with Joe, too. I'm pretty damn sure most gay people would dispute they have a choice about their sexuality. If we extend that logic, then hetrosexuals have a choice to abstain, too. I firmly believe you are born with your sexuality and if you choose to opress it, you face a life of misery. This thread makes for some interesting reading, unfortunately I'm not articulate enough to give a credible response just wanted to reply to Claz's post I agree with you I didn't chose to be gay but I did make the choice to try and not be and I made the choice "come out" so that I don't have to live a life of misery! Although the consequences of my choice aren't always plesant Agree totally with the above. Although knowing from a very young age that I was 'different', the totally homophobic attitude of my parents and everyone else close to me, left me feeling that I had no other option than to pretend that I wasn't It's only been a few years since I decided that I had nothing to be ashamed of, so I chose to be honest to people about my sexuality. I'm telling you, if it had been a matter of choice I wouldn't have bothered with so many years of denying who I am! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClazUK Posted June 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 I agree with you I didn't chose to be gay but I did make the choice to try and not be and I made the choice "come out" so that I don't have to live a life of misery! Although knowing from a very young age that I was 'different', the totally homophobic attitude of my parents and everyone else close to me, left me feeling that I had no other option than to pretend that I wasn't It's only been a few years since I decided that I had nothing to be ashamed of, so I chose to be honest to people about my sexuality. I'm telling you, if it had been a matter of choice I wouldn't have bothered with so many years of denying who I am! I'm quite moved by both of your posts. I hope they illustrate to others why it's a matter over which neither of you had any choice or control Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReikiAnge Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 I'm quite moved by both of your posts. I hope they illustrate to others why it's a matter over which neither of you had any choice or control Me too and I'm sorry you have both faced problems when being honest about who you are, especially from families who are supposedly meant to support us But good on 'ya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helly Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 Is it just me that had to google the term BDSM ? not only that when I googled the first time I left the D out and ended up with links to the British School of Motoring I was more than a little confused I can tell you I think id rather have sex with a driving instructor than someone who wanted to tie me up and dominate me. and god help anyone wanting to bring pain into my sex life.... Id flatten anyone who tried and im not sure it would be all that enjoyable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alison Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 (edited) I.......am not for one second putting these ponderings forward as being right or wrong - they don't even represent my own personal view as it happens, this is just stuff that keeps coming to the forefront of my mind each time I consider these issues. My whole post was with reference to the title of the thread: "-isms.....Why Are Some Acceptable and Others Not?" My theory is that some "isms" may be perceived (NOT by me) as choices and therefore somehow less acceptable. I hold the view that nobody should be ridiculed or discriminated against even for things that definitely are choices (e.g. having a beard, keeping pets, taste in music) provided that they harm no one. However.....being overweight - or the other extreme - anorexic. Surely that's just a matter of eating a few less pies the case of the former or eating a few more in the latter? Being gay? Hypothetically speaking it's a "preference" What I failed to make clear was that these were rhetorical questions and I apologise for that I thought it was obvious but the written word will always fall short of real-life conversation! They don't reflect my own view at all, far from it. They're cruel. Unfortunately it is a fact that some people do see such issues this way though - often perfectly well intentioned folks from the older generation who know no better, sometimes even people from the medical profession who surely should know better My own experience is that children are the most accepting when it comes to "isms". I don't generally like kids very much but I have to say that this impresses me. It also makes me more optimistic about the future of society. I'm not sure your idea of choice is the same as mine. Some of the examples given aren't as simple as choice, especially when they're controlled by your mental state. Agreed - to my shame I chose crap examples Donald Trump's comb-over coiffure might be a better case in point. Nobody ridicules him for being bald because he can't help that but plenty do - including the BBC - for his hairstyle. That actually p*sses me off a great deal (see my previous comment) as I think it's personal, unnecessary and unkind. It's his choice, he obviously likes it and thinks that it suits him, it harms nobody, let him get on with it. Agree with Joe, too. I'm pretty damn sure most gay people would dispute they have a choice about their sexuality. If we extend that logic, then hetrosexuals have a choice to abstain, too. I firmly believe you are born with your sexuality and if you choose to opress it, you face a life of misery. I'd go even further than that: every gay or bisexual person that I know seethes at the notion that they have a choice about their sexuality. It is a fact that some sections of society see it as such though, hence my first post. For what it's worth I'd have worded the title differently: "-isms.....why are some perceived as more acceptable than others". All "isms" should be accepted as far as I'm concerned, (again) with the caveat that they harm nobody. I'm quite moved by both of your posts. I hope they illustrate to others why it's a matter over which neither of you had any choice or control Claz, Joe, Billy, Steph and Ange (I exceeded my quotes ). Just to reiterate the point that the examples given are not my idea of matters that are decided by personal choice. I still think my theory holds water though. It comes from some 30 odd years of asking bigots why they think what they think. Edited to say that I'd seethe at the notion of my own sexuality being perceived as a matter of "choice". Also to say that Steph, every post of yours that I've read suggests that you are perfectly articulate Edited June 16, 2008 by Alison Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudi Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 Do people who hold 'ismist' views have a choice? You can help the way you treat people but can you help the way you feel about some things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClazUK Posted June 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 Rudi, you've even got me in knots, now Alison, my posts were not a pop at you, honest, more the whole perception that people can help the way they are. I think id rather have sex with a driving instructor than someone who wanted to tie me up and dominate me. and god help anyone wanting to bring pain into my sex life.... Id flatten anyone who tried and im not sure it would be all that enjoyable Perhaps you should try an alternative career as a professional dominatrix then, there's good money in it, *allegedly* On a serious note, though, I believe those with submissive/dominant tendancies are just as much 'born that way' as gay people, which is why I included them in my original list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyMalc Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 I'd go even further than that: every gay or bisexual person that I know seethes at the notion that they have a choice about their sexuality. It is a fact that some sections of society see it as such though, hence my first post. For what it's worth I'd have worded the title differently: "-isms.....why are some perceived as more acceptable than others". All "isms" should be accepted as far as I'm concerned, (again) with the caveat that they harm nobody. Claz, Joe, Billy, Steph and Ange (I exceeded my quotes ). Just to reiterate the point that the examples given are not my idea of matters that are decided by personal choice. My reply was with regards to the ideas that some people, including my own family, have with regards to gay people - and just about everyone else who isn't "bog standard" I didn't think these were your views Obviously the term "bog standard" to describe all sorts of different people could provoke a discussion in itself, but I didn't want to sum up an entire list of "-isms" that the older generation of my family would have had negative views about. I'd guess you understand what I mean tho. What the younger generation of my family thinks I have no idea because they don't care about me no matter what I am or ain't; we've not spoken for years. Do people who hold 'ismist' views have a choice? You can help the way you treat people but can you help the way you feel about some things? I think people do to a large extend have a choice how they feel, or whether they want to act upon those feelings. Some 'straight' people might not like the idea of people of the same sex being in a relationship or whatnot, but they do have a choice as to if and how they voice those feelings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helly Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 I think people do to a large extend have a choice how they feel, or whether they want to act upon those feelings. Some 'straight' people might not like the idea of people of the same sex being in a relationship or whatnot, but they do have a choice as to if and how they voice those feelings. I have no control of my initial reactions to certain situations. i do have control of how i show those reactions. perhaps its my obsessive cleanliness thing, but if someone wanted to dress in an all in one rubber suit to shag me, im afraid my only thought would be how hot and sweaty they would get and how 'sweaty bits and bobs' repulse me. I would try to be polite in declining the opportunity to find out. I wonder why women went through a long hard slog to gain equality, and while im no feminist ( i like a man to pay for everything and have old fashioned manners ie opening doors etc) i feel uncomfortable in reading about a woman being happy to be led about in public on a collar and lead like a dog. Again, i would do my best not to show my dissapointment, but i cant help the fact that is how i feel. I do my best to get through my days on a 'live and let live' basis and rarely show emotion to any situation but it doesnt mean i dont have feelings under my apparent cold exterior Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyMalc Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 I have no control of my initial reactions to certain situations. i do have control of how i show those reactions. perhaps its my obsessive cleanliness thing, but if someone wanted to dress in an all in one rubber suit to shag me, im afraid my only thought would be how hot and sweaty they would get and how 'sweaty bits and bobs' repulse me. I would try to be polite in declining the opportunity to find out. I wonder why women went through a long hard slog to gain equality, and while im no feminist ( i like a man to pay for everything and have old fashioned manners ie opening doors etc) i feel uncomfortable in reading about a woman being happy to be led about in public on a collar and lead like a dog. Again, i would do my best not to show my dissapointment, but i cant help the fact that is how i feel. I do my best to get through my days on a 'live and let live' basis and rarely show emotion to any situation but it doesnt mean i dont have feelings under my apparent cold exterior I understand what you are saying and I think you are totally right. People do by and large have (initial) feelings which are instinctive - based upon their own experiences. However, as you are saying, in case of the rubber suited guy, you'd try to be polite in declining. You'd do your best not to show disappointment at the dog collared woman etc. You wouldn't go round and beat them up tho, would you? That's what I mean. For instance, people who are negative about people from a different cultural background often feel negative out of 'fear of the unknown'. However, they can choose to either remain ignorant and hostile towards those different cultures or make the effort to learn about them and then base their feelings/opinions on their gained knowledge. And of course, learning about different cultures does not necessarily mean that people's feelings about them change, and I do think that people have a right to their feelings and opinions, even if they are not 100% positive to everything and everyone that comes their way. What I have a problem with is a negative attitude based on ignorance and showing disrespect for someone else's life when their lifestyle choices do not harm anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathyw Posted June 17, 2008 Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 I know this is a serious thread but I have been laughing quite a lot and learnt some stuff. Don't get hlgs to google anything for you. Steer clear of Helly if wearing rubber etc. And never let her visit my house without 2 days warning so I can clean up a bit. The only people I have a problem with are people who are nasty. I don't care who what when or how anyone does whatever as long as they do not dis-respect me or mine in the doing of whatever and let's face it hetrosexuals are the most frequent offenders of the above. Flashers etc. I have only met a few cross-dressers and it was in a club and seemed normal to me in the club setting. I have met many homosexuals and again was unaware, in fact one chap whose dog I looked after I was going to try and fix him up with my niece. Ray knew Jon was gay when we first met him, I didn't. He laughed his socks off when I told him. When he broke up with his longtime partner - he came to us and Ray put his arm around him and gave him a hug and Jon said he wished his family could do that for him. It made me weep for his pain. I was friends with someone for over 30 years before she came out and it broke my heart that she didn't feel safe enough to be herself all those years. She was worried that her family would find out if she told anyone at all. I just don't seem to 'see' what seems to be evident to others and I am truly grateful for that because I see them as a person first and foremost - if they don't like animals, then yes I do judge them - I am wary but if they love/like animals then I like them. I even married one of 'them'. Them = people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helly Posted June 17, 2008 Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 I know this is a serious thread but I have been laughing quite a lot and learnt some stuff. Don't get hlgs to google anything for you. Steer clear of Helly if wearing rubber etc. And never let her visit my house without 2 days warning so I can clean up a bit. I dont mind untidy houses, or dusty houses. (cant deal with obvious grime of totally uncleaned for years tho). My obsession with cleanliness is personal hygene more than anything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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