Following On From ....

[cycas]

I was born over 60 years ago and couldn't eat meat (Mum couldn't eat it when she was carrying me). There were no special vegetarian foods available. No Tofu, soya etc.

I ate the same as everyone else in the family - just no meat on my plate. Lots of veg and fruit though.

The only thing I 'suffered' from was being skinny - like a shilling rabbit was a term used for me.

I rarely got sick, had more energy than most of my friends and have always had spot free skin.

 

That's lucky for you, but I bet there were plenty of other kids who would not have survived it.

 

In the 1940s, the infant death rate was something like 5 children in every 100 died as infants: today it's more like 5 infants in 1000, and although there are lots of factors reflected in that, such as improved medical care for premature babies, one of the big changes is nutrition. Nowadays we know how important diet is, and we are aware of problems like nut allergies, and foods that are not appropriate for very small babies. In 1948, many children with food sensitivities would probably have simply 'failed to thrive' and been carried off by a childhood ailment. No-one would even have known what the problem was.

 

That 1940's figure is still an improvement over the 1930s, and one reason for that is supposed to be rationing: pregnant women got extra milk and eggs. It's horrible to think that being allowed a few extra eggs and milk a week made such a difference to the child death rate, or that even as late as the 30's there were so many pregnant women simply not getting enough to eat, to be able to produce children at a healthy, survivable birth weight.

 

I certainly wouldn't argue that raising a vegan child is always a bad idea, all kids are different, but given the problems many parents seem to have getting appropriate nutrition into their kids, and the horrible stress that can cause, I just can't see it working for that many people.

[Houndwoman]

My OH's daughter is vegan and so is her hubby. They have a very healthy, energetic, intelligent 4 year old son who has been vegan from birth.

 

I know quite a few people who have raised vegan children and they appear to be no worse off than omnivorous children

[cycas]

I did say that it was not necessarily a bad idea. But there is no evidence that it's always a good idea, which is what is needed if we were to give up meat and animal products as a society: if a significant number of people still have to eat meat or at least dairy products to survive, that does rather counterbalance the idea that humans are 'natural' vegans.

 

It's a lot easier now than it used to be to get a balanced diet without animal products, but that only works as long as we have our current regime of eating mostly imported, highly processed foods. Most non-meat protein sources don't even grow in a commercially viable way in the UK, the growing season is not long enough.

 

If we are doing personally familiar examples (not that they prove anything much either way), I offer you my friend's little boy, who has sufficient food allergies that he cannot eat nuts or soya or various other things. Getting food into him has been a major challenge for them, and they soon gave up on the idea of raising him as a vegetarian.

[BillyMalc]

I've known several vegan kids who are in very good health and have lots of energy. I also see kids who are on a hideously bad omnivorous diet and sufer from obesity and all sorts of related ailments. I don't claim to know all vegan childen, or that all vegan children are healthy by default, but I would estimate that many (not all!) vegan parents will have more knowledge of and put more thought into the family's diet, if anything because they will have to figure things out on their own. I don't think that there are many dieticians etc about (yet) who are able to give clear, concise advice regarding bringing up (young) children on a vegan diet.

Also, many high-fat, high-sugar snacks and convenience foods aren't suitable for vegans anyway, which does restrict the choice in this area quite a bit. This is not to say that all vegan children come running into the home full of energy after a day at school and attack the fruit basket - all I'm saying is that it is less easy to go down the snacks/sweets aisles in the supermarket and stock up your trolley with all sorts, like I see families do in my local Asda.

I do think that having a good, healthy diet is always a good idea, and I would guess that, physically speaking, for the majority of people this could well be a vegan diet. Of course there will always be people who have allergies, and for who it would be difficult to have a strict vegan diet. Then, on the other hand, there are people like Kathy, who can't eat meat, thus redressing the balance of what a natural, good diet should consist of

[reds]

I did say that it was not necessarily a bad idea. But there is no evidence that it's always a good idea, which is what is needed if we were to give up meat and animal products as a society: if a significant number of people still have to eat meat or at least dairy products to survive, that does rather counterbalance the idea that humans are 'natural' vegans.

 

 

How do you know a significant number of people need to eat meat or dairy to survive? What are you basing that statement on? It's an extrapolation of an opinion to me. As far as I was aware, the staple diet of 3rd world populations is some version of rice, bread and beans as meat is too expensive and seen as a luxury.

Also, dairy intolerance in babies is a fairly well-known condition.

 

I am not arguing for or against eating animal products here (obviously you know my opinion) on that score, but I do argue with the statement that:

"a significant number of people still have to eat meat or at least dairy products to survive". How many people do you think have actually tried? I doubt it would be a significant number.

[Kathyw]

How do you know a significant number of people need to eat meat or dairy to survive? What are you basing that statement on? It's an extrapolation of an opinion to me. As far as I was aware, the staple diet of 3rd world populations is some version of rice, bread and beans as meat is too expensive and seen as a luxury.

Also, dairy intolerance in babies is a fairly well-known condition.

 

I am not arguing for or against eating animal products here (obviously you know my opinion) on that score, but I do argue with the statement that:

"a significant number of people still have to eat meat or at least dairy products to survive". How many people do you think have actually tried? I doubt it would be a significant number.

 

Good post Reds.

 

Although those people whose staple diet is rice,beans,bread etc are usually thin, they are healthy and indeed manage to do hard manual work in lots of places.

Meat is not neccessary to good health.

 

The quickest way to lose weight and remain healthy and fit is a raw food diet. Eat all you like.

[traceymcl]

I have been thinking about this a lot recently.

 

I have been reading a book recently:

 

Meat by Joseph D'Lacey

 

It is fictional and a horror - about a canabalistic society. Good book (if you like horror), well written etc.

 

Well researched and describing lots of modern farming practises.

 

Really put me off animal products. I haven't eaten dairy since and have only bought organic meat.

 

But, what stops me looking at becoming vegan is the dogs. I have 3. Between them they eat more meat in a day than I would eat in a week. I cannot afford to feed them on organic meat. TBH, even feeding them organic would cause me problems if I was worried about animal welfare. I think even organic farmers castrate male animals without anaesthetic - something that bothers me.

 

My dogs don't eat as much meat as many I know. They are all on home made diets and eat a third meat, a third fruit and a third veg. They all eat fruit and veg happily.

 

Billy, I know you feed your guys on a vegan diet. Can you give an idea of what you cook for them? What do you do for their teeth? I'm lazy and just lob my guys bones for their teeth.

 

I know some people who are horrified at the idea of us feeding ourselves dairy products. Not from a welfare point of view - just that milk is something designed to be fed to mammals before they are weaned. No other animals on the planet consume milk once they have been weaned.

 

Thanks,

 

Tracey xx

[mooandboo]

But, what stops me looking at becoming vegan is the dogs. I have 3. Between them they eat more meat in a day than I would eat in a week. I cannot afford to feed them on organic meat. TBH, even feeding them organic would cause me problems if I was worried about animal welfare. I think even organic farmers castrate male animals without anaesthetic - something that bothers me.

 

I'm vegan but at the moment I still feed the dogs their usual food (vitalin) I take the view that one step is better than none

[sproggie14]

Billy, I know you feed your guys on a vegan diet. Can you give an idea of what you cook for them? What do you do for their teeth? I'm lazy and just lob my guys bones for their teeth.

 

Just to say that we feed ours on Happidog nuggets. I don't know if they are totally vegan but they're vegetarian society approved, not tested on animals and the AAFCO (Association Of American Feed Control Officials) has judged it nutritionally complete for dogs. Our lot really thrive on it

[ReikiAnge]

I'm veggie rather than vegan but I also feel extremely hypocritical about feeding the dogs meat - they have Naturediet - but I don't like feeding dried food to them (or I'd just feed one of the veggie/vegan ones instead).

 

I just consider what I do to be something at least and just because at this moment I feel happiest feeding my dogs Naturediet, doesn't mean I need to eat meat too. If I had tons of spare money I would buy locally sourced free range meat and do a home prepared diet for them but that's not going to happen for now. Or I would do what Billy does, as that sounds fab, and I'm sure my dogs would love to eat that way, but I will have to bear that in mind for the future.

 

If anyone's looking for veggie/vegan dog food, Veggie Pets sells it - and biodegradeable poo bags

http://www.veggiepets.com/acatalog/vegetarian_dog_food.html - you can buy small sample packs I believe too. They also do a tinned vegan cat/dog food which looks interesting, only heard about that when I last bought poo bags.

[Alison]

Meat is not neccessary to good health.

Not just necessary but absolutely vital for some people, including me (and I would actually prefer to be veggie).

 

Don't judge such as I harshly without being cognisant of the facts

[mooandboo]

Not just necessary but absolutely vital for some people, including me (and I would actually prefer to be veggie).

 

Don't judge such as I harshly without being cognisant of the facts

My brother went veggie when he was 16 (as did I at 13, my Mum and my elder brother) He lost weight at a startling rate, unlike the rest of us, and had to go back to eating meat.

[Jacobean]

Sadly I tried to go veggie and got really ill. I discovered that most veg disagrees with me and the one thing that can always get me back on track if I have a bad episode of IBS is chicken unfortunately. I persevered with it for about 6 months and felt utterly ghastly.

[BillyMalc]

Of course there are people who have got medical conditions which prevent them from adopting a vegan diet, I'd be the last to dispute that. There are many people though, who have tried going veggie/vegan, but then just ended up having a poor, unvaried diet, became ill and blamed it on being veggie/vegan - and then saying that people are meant to be meat eaters! Let's put it this way: people are meant to have a healthy, varied diet, and for many this could be vegan. That better?

 

 

Billy, I know you feed your guys on a vegan diet. Can you give an idea of what you cook for them? What do you do for their teeth? I'm lazy and just lob my guys bones for their teeth.

 

 

Just to say that we feed ours on Happidog nuggets. I don't know if they are totally vegan but they're vegetarian society approved, not tested on animals and the AAFCO (Association Of American Feed Control Officials) has judged it nutritionally complete for dogs. Our lot really thrive on it

 

Happidog nuggests are almost vegan, because they've got D3 in it, which comes from sheep's wool. Mal and Kiera have Ami nuggets (from veggiepets) for their breakfast, which they love. It might be horribly expensive compared to other dog foods, but it's organic too. I wouldn't mind giving them Happidog nuggets, but they don't like them half as much as the Ami stuff - so what do you do?

 

For dinner I cook them anything really, leaving out salt, keeping it low fat and avoiding onions, which dogs can't have. Yesterday for instance we had stir fry, with tofu, carrots, pak choi, leek and green beans. Mushrooms don't seem to be good for dogs in larger quantities, so I fried them on the side, but I've given them to the guys as well without any problems. Malcolm loves cauliflower - or anything with tomato sauce on it, he's such a bloke! - and Kiera loves broccoli. Kiera has raw veg for her teeth and that seems to work well. I also make my own dog biscuits, which you could probably brick a window with if you'd give it a try.

Mal's mouth is a state at the moment, because of his lymphoma, so he only gets soft stuff.

They both get a tablespoon a day of a seed mixture, consisting of 50% flax seed and 50% sunflower/pumpkin/sesame seed, ground up in a coffee grinder, and I grind up a vitamin B12 tablet with it twice a week, to be on the safe side. I've run their diet by a vet a few years ago, and he was absolutely fine with it.

 

Variety is key, so the day before we had chili, and tonight we might have cauliflower and millet mash - with any kind of tinned beans or lentils for their protein - if anything because we'll be having one other human and 2 canine guests for dinner tonight, and we all like the stuff. The guests are my old flatmate and her 2 dogs, who have been on a vegan, homecooked diet for the past year and a half or so. Sophie used to be on a hypo-allergenic diet because she was said to be allergic to everything, scratching her poor belly red raw, up to bleeding point. The hypo-allergenic diet did nothing for her, but having a varied vegan diet does.

 

Anyway, before I bore you all to tears, give a shout if you'd like any more info

[traceymcl]

Thanks for that, Billy. Very useful. I obviously have loads more research to do but I'm very seriously considering shifting both mine and the dogs' diets so that at least at first the only meat they get is organic. Would mean I could probably only afford to feed us meat once a week or so.

 

Mine are all already on home made diets anyway because of K's food allergies. And they all eat a good variety of foods including fruit, veg, ground nuts and seeds. Rice and oats as well. The boys have eggs too. All 3 of them will happily eat a bowl of food processed veg for their dinner without any complaint. They get home made treats just now anyway.

 

Brocolli stems are a favoured chew him my house also.

 

So far everything that K is allergic to is animal based: chicken is the main one (a tiny amount of that turns her into a lunatic), beef isn't good, salmon and eggs also caused some problems.

 

I find with Katie that I can feed her on some commercial dog foods for short periods of time (when we go on holiday). But even if the foods have nothing she is allergic to, I notice her allergies coming out. I suspect it's the preservatives - which they all have in them.

 

Katie's symptoms are almost all behaviour related - her sore feet last year came ultimately from the allergies. But physical problems pale into insignificance compared to the behavioural problems that an in appropriate diet causes.

 

I suspect it's been a life long problem. Katie was not a normal puppy. Her early upbringing and experiences in her litter didn't help but they weren't the full story. She has always been a very challenging dog. Until now. Now that her diet has been sorted out, she's amazing. It's like owning a different dog.

 

Tracey xx