Man Who Donated Sperm To Lesbian Couple

[Ian]

If it were reallly a good idea to stop people breeding in case their kids got teased about their parents, we'd have to prohibit reproduction by all people with rude surnames (or surnames that could be said in a rude way), extra-fat people, extra thin people, smelly people, people with comical accents, people with bad hair, poor people, posh people, stupid people, excessively clever people, and people who might rashly force their children to learn to play the violin. Not to mention all the deeply uncool people: we can't have them breeding, with their terrible dancing, sad clothes and tendency to say embarrassing things loudly in shops! The human race would be doomed...

 

I do take your point here, although to me most of these things are more temporary / subject to changeability where sexuality doesn't for most people really change - even those who may wish to try and deny a preference for a period.

 

 

Mostly though I'm sad that this has become such a public struggle and I really really hope the poor kid is too young to understand what's going on.

 

I agree with your first element. At the moment I think the child is too young, where we perhaps disagree is that I'd argue that one day this child will be old enough. Whether they'll understand or just be subjected to intense confusion I'm not so certain.

 

If he is to be held responsible....what about a baby who is adopted...and then the adoptive father leaves the family home. Who does the woman go after for maintenance? her ex...who is not the child's father...or the real father who presumably didn't want it in the first place?

I think once you have taken steps to have a child out of the usual parameters, then you and whoever you are intending to bring the child up with, regardless of the sex of your partner, should be solely responsible for that child.

 

 

An interesting point

[Alison]

im so angry i could burst

But what about?

 

 

I have no opinion whatsoever in terms of right or wrong on the subject of homosexuality and only one experience of lesbian parents. I appreciate that it is no more representative than that of any other kind of parenting but must say that it didn't go well for any of the parties involved, particularly the child. A long story for another time, but he was essentially punished and humiliated by the female parents for having been born a boy. He's 21 years of age now and after being taken into care in his early teens and subsequently fostered by a very experienced and loving family, he now lives between prison and being a homeless criminal.

 

They don't have powers to remove cash from a bank account

Yep, they do you know! (paraphrased version of original quote)

Cheryl, I've just realised that this looked like a dig but it honestly wasn't meant as one The prog simply happened to be on the radio when I got into my car yesterday which is how I knew about the bank deduction thing. I only ever know what's going on outside my own little world from the radio or reading things on The Refuge!

 

I agree that it's a double edged sword too. I've no first hand experience of the CSA but have plenty of friends who've suffered at their hands one way or another, several whose perfectly amicable arrangements with ex-OHs and kids has been difficult to sustain as a consequence of their ill judged and unwelcome interventions (seldom benefits-related either). On the other hand I've known mothers - and fathers - for whom this sanction would have been an absolute godsend. I think that the "one size fits all" approach and heavy handed attitude that typifies large organisations of this kind is particularly inappropriate where families are involved.

 

 

Ian, whatever your views and whether or not I agree with them, I fully defend your right to hold and express them here. This is by no means having a go at anyone who you've offended either - on this forum everyone is entitled to express what they feel as robustly as they like far as I'm concerned.

 

Purely out of interest, are you open minded (in that your opinions on any subject) could be changed or modified once debated with others and reflected upon? It's not a trick question or even Ian-specific, I am genuinely interested in whether anyone here is open to the idea of having strongly held opinions challenged and altered as a consequence.

 

 

I see Alison has - succinctly - answered the first part.

My "bluntness" issue is something which I will be working on in 2008! Apologies for that.

 

I'm tired and ill so will apologise for the spelling and syntax howlers in advance - I'm never quick enough to edit. And can't be arsed.

[Ian]

Ian if I remember rightly you have no children of your own - is that correct ?

 

Kids can be cruel about disabilities, looks, whether you wear glasses or not, obese, unable to swim etc etc ride a bike and be bullied for any number of reasons. The reasons why kids become bullied is because of the way they have been brought up and the way parents convey tolerance and intolerance.

 

I work on the Southampton Gay Scene, where the norm is gay and lesbian couples with kids of varying different ages from previous hetro relationships, these kids are the most well adjusted kids, and are brought up in stable loving homes which is what kids need. It is irrelevant whether whether it is a gay or straight home.

 

Society has changed from what is was ten even twenty years ago - it seems as if you have not.

 

Yes that is correct. As I say each time this old chesnut arises however I fail to see how not having kids myself prevents me from forming an opinion. Are for example most people responding to my comments here not forming opinions on sexuality without necessarilybeing of that sexuality themselves?

 

As for the comment on "previous hetro relationships" doesn't that imply a choice was made somewhere rather than you are what you are? - it was suggested above this wasn't the case

[Ian]

Whatever the *rights* of anyone, homosexual, straight, wanting child but no relationship etc I wish that the rights of the child created by sperm donation would be set in stone so that they can have a chance to understand those aspects of their personality, health etc which don't quite fit with the parents who are caring for them.

 

There's nothing worse for me than a child who could know these things but hasn't been allowed to know because the rights of the adults involved take precedence over theirs. Financial involvement is, to me, the least of their (the child) worries.

 

In answer to the original question, I have to agree with Sam.

 

Ian, do you know any children from such an *environment*?

 

 

It's probably not for the same reasons but ironically my argument is based around similar sentiments to those in your first two paragraphs - the interests of the child not the desires of the adult to "obtain" a child by any means.

 

I know of a homosexual couple who have either adopted / fostered (not sure which) a boy. I haven't met the boy and have no problem with the couple but I just don't think it's right or in the best interests of a child. I'm sorry that some apparently feel offence or anger at that point of view but I make no apologies for holding it nor expressing it - this is after all a controversial forum, ie somewhere people are invited to express an opinion. Naturally there will be times we disagree but I don't deny any of you the right to express your views.

[blackmagic]

'Personally I believe that a suitable long term role model of each sex is best for any child '

 

 

"Also, I think your assessment of the "Southampton Gay Scene" may be rose-tinted. It's unlikely, surely, that those children are all "the most well adjusted kids""

 

 

this makes interesting reading

 

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6670.html

[scotslass]

But what about?

 

 

My "bluntness" issue is something which I will be working on in 2008! Apologies for that.

 

Yes, it would help if you explained, Tigga.

 

Please don't, Alison. We need you the way you are.

[akitas]

Society has changed from what is was ten even twenty years ago - it seems as if you have not. "

I know this is straying from the original point of the post, but just thought that I'd comment on this...yes they may be well adjusted in an environment where they are the norm.....but they aren't necessarily accepted where they aren't. I've read in our local paper a couple of times recently of lesbian couples who are having to move because of the hostile reaction of their neighbours, and on a personal level, a colleague of my husband is a transsexual (male to female) living with another woman and her daughter. They have had to take the girl out of school and homeschool her because of the level of bullying, and they are selling their house because of the continual egg throwing and graffiti, not to mention damage to their cars, in the area where they are. So...some of society may have changed..but not all, I'm afraid. The girl in this case, who is thirteen or so I think, is so affected by it they think she will need to see a therapist, and my husband's colleague has been off work for the past five weeks with no sign of coming back yet with stress.

 

I don't think bullying is down to the sexual preference of the parents. Kids today look for victims and pick whoever seems "useful" for them.

If you have fat/thin mother/father, a short or tall, if you have a speech problem, wear glasses etc.

All of my kids were bullied at school, some more, some less. I think it has more to do with that they can get away with it.

 

 

To the original question, I agree with what has been said before. The 2 women decided to have a child. They should be mainly responsible. As one seem to be financially reliable on the other (in looking after the child) the "remaining" one should provide.

If the biological father is involved in the upbringing of the child he should help to provide as well, but I see the main responsibility with the other mother.

 

Very sad story and I feel sorry for the child not only being rejected by 1 parent, but by 2

[blackmagic]

Very sad story and I feel sorry for the child not only being rejected by 1 parent, but by 2

 

Well said

[Ian]

I am speaking from my first hand experience, I know homophobia exists, as I have been on the receiving end of it not from a stranger but from someone who was my closeest friend for 10 years, that friendship ended a year ago

 

My own kids have had no contact with their own father as he gave up parental responsibility 7 years ago and also gave up all financial input as well. Do they miss him - no. Do they have any desire to be in contact with him - no. Are they well adjusted - yes very much so, they are both high achievers at school and college and are kids to be proud of.

 

I'm not in any way homophobic - that was what I meant in commenting upon what people chose to do in their own homes. But as you yourself have now said there are those who are extremely so. I don't understand why a child who isn't even related to either carer should be adopted into that situation?

 

I'm saddened for you and your children to read about their father's attitude & frankly I think such men ought to be flogged. A child deserves a forever relationship with two decent parent regardless of any breakdown between their Mother & father.

[scotslass]

'Personally I believe that a suitable long term role model of each sex is best for any child '

"Also, I think your assessment of the "Southampton Gay Scene" may be rose-tinted. It's unlikely, surely, that those children are all "the most well adjusted kids""

this makes interesting reading

 

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6670.html

 

I don't think you should lump my quote in with Ian's. You may think we could both benefit from reading the article, but we do not hold the same point of view.

 

As for the article, it doesn't change what I said (second quote above). That bit of research points to the fact that children raised in lesbian families show no difference in development, etc. - not that they are "the most well adjusted kids". My point is that no family is perfect, not even one with two female parents.

 

Ian - what about all those children during the world wars when fathers were absent for many years? Did they suffer from the lack of a male role model? Or children whose fathers work away from home? Genuine question - I believe there's been research on that too.

[JessandCos]

Nat Gamble has posted on another forum regarding this whole situation.

 

To summarise, the two women did not formally adopt the child, if they did sperm donor would have not been liable for financial support and it would have fallen on woman B

 

The fatyher did play an active part in the childs life, if he chose to remain anonymous and donate via an organisation he could have remained anonymous.

 

Woman A and woman B were not CP which meant that at any time one could have upped and left without any financial repercussions - hence why woman B is able to get away without paying any financial support for the child.

 

If anyone wants the link to the original post and forum ( you do not need to register to view you can PM me)

[merledogs]

In the link I posted, it says there are actually two children fathered by the same man, rather than just one.

Edited December 5, 2007 by madmerle

[Ian]

quote name='Melp' post='590846' date='Dec 5 2007, 05:55 PM']Being gay isn't a disease or a lifestyle choice, it's just what you are [or aren't].

 

[Now here you may well have taken me wrongly. At no point have I suggested that being gay was a disease and I don't hold any religious objection either. I in fact said specifically for that reason that I have no problem with what people do in their own homes. I merely disagree as to whether it's the best environment in which to bring either an adopted or artificially produce a child for.

 

The lifestyle choice I've said I'm inclined to agree with you on but this does appear open to debate given some of the later comments.

Edited December 5, 2007 by Ian

[Alison]

If it were really a good idea to stop people breeding in case their kids got teased about their parents, we'd have to prohibit reproduction by all people with extra thin people.... people with bad hair....poor people....posh people....excessively clever people....people who might rashly force their children to learn to play the violin. Not to mention all the deeply uncool people: we can't have them breeding, with their terrible dancing, sad clothes and tendency to say embarrassing things loudly in shops! The human race would be doomed...

And I'm thinking OMG, unbeknownst to me Victoria has not only met my parents but been traumatised by the experience too, as is everyone else who ever meets them! Welcome to my world. Being brought up by "ruggedly individual" people (of whatever gender) may be fun at times but it's not necessarily an easy ride, believe me.

 

I don't think bullying is down to the sexual preference of the parents. Kids today look for victims and pick whoever seems "useful" for them.

If you have fat/thin mother/father, a short or tall, if you have a speech problem, wear glasses etc.

All of my kids were bullied at school, some more, some less. I think it has more to do with that they can get away with it.

Further to my comment above and joking aside, bullying and how to deal with it would make a great contro thread.

 

Please don't, Alison. We need you the way you are.

No need to fret, the work I'm doing in terms of addressing my bluntness issues is not going well, nor is it ever likely to.

[Ian]

Purely out of interest, are you open minded (in that your opinions on any subject) could be changed or modified once debated with others and reflected upon?

 

The answer probably depends who you asked? Critics or even those who don't know me that well have been known to accuse me of being implacable, friends might say that wasn't true but suggest you may be some time. I would suggest I can be reasoned with and won over, but I wont just change my mind on anything because someone else says I'm wrong - they'd have to convince me of it. If they can't / wont take the time & effort that's upto them.