reds Posted June 1, 2007 Report Share Posted June 1, 2007 Ted. and I do competitive ob. but I only started training when I had him which was a couple of years ago now. Obviously being in that world I know that many peeps advocate clicker training and it clearly has great results. One thing has always puzzled me though: What is the difference/advantage in marking a behaviour with a clicker as opposed to your voice? In my small brain, if I used a clicker, the only difference is that I click instead of saying "good" etc. I'm sure the answer's obvious but I did say I was challenged! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophie Posted June 1, 2007 Report Share Posted June 1, 2007 From my point of view, there are two factors. One, 'good' takes a while to get out, and in the mean time, the dog may have stopped doing what you want and moved onto something else. For example, ask for a sit, the dog sits, you say good, and while the message is getting from brain and out of your mouth, the dog lies down - you've now inadvertantly praised for a down when you asked for a sit. With a clicker, its a much shorter marker, so chances are the dog is still doign what you want when they hear the click. Secondly, there is no emotion in the sound of a click. It is constant, no matter how frustrated, tired, etc you are with the dog. Its quite easy to put emotion into even a short word like good, which then feeds into the dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucyandmeg Posted June 2, 2007 Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 The click is a very consistent noise, if you think of how often you use your voice talking to the dog in so many differnt tones of voice it becomes less easy for the dog to distinguish what marked the behaviour, or what was part of the command etc. Its a very powerful sound as there is really no other sound like it so the dog is in no doubt what you mean, and its easier to get split second timing right with a click, for example when training heel its easier to click that split second one of the back legs moves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reds Posted June 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 Thank you both, you have explained it to me well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LurcherGirl Posted June 12, 2007 Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 (edited) You can use a "clicker word" instead of the actual clicker when training; something I do when I can't find a clicker or can't be bothered to use one. But the clicker is better because it is a neutral sound... it is not totally vital for clicker training though... (Just last night I quickly taught my puppy to put one paw on a container, I just said "good" instead of using a clicker, but used clicker training principles... it took maybe about 7 or 8 minutes until he repeatedly put his paw on the container without problems.) I do think though proper clicker training is different to training with a clicker. The key to clicker training is not just to mark the right behaviour instead of saying "good boy", it means training is done in small steps, it means that those small steps are repeated often until the dog understands it and executes them without hesitation, it means that exercises are taken apart and the individual steps are being practiced rather than the full exercise... etc. Many people just use a clicker instead of saying "good boy" and that's how many people justify also why they are not using a clicker "I can just as well use verbal praise"... but that's not necessarily proper clicker training though! Not sure whether that makes sense... Edited June 12, 2007 by LurcherGirl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted June 12, 2007 Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 (edited) (Just last night I quickly taught my puppy to put one paw on a container, I just said "good" instead of using a clicker, but used clicker training principles... it took maybe about 7 or 8 minutes until he repeatedly put his paw on the container without problems.) Tara & Jo were the first dogs I'd trained - so you make mistakes along the way. As a result I'd now be careful of using "good" for anything other than praise myself - In the past I found that I'd inadvertently taught Tara (who loves to chase balls - Jo didn't) that "good" - when I was simply praising her for doing something I wanted (like wait / stay for example) - meant we had finished & she could run off & play instead of continuing to do what I was praising. I'd done this without realising by mixing play & training, praising her for having waited as I wanted & then immediately letting her go off & chase a ball Later when I said for example sit, she did it & I said good I realised that she now effectively heard finish / you can go chase you ball. In your example if you want to praise him with good boy in future & have also taught him that good means put your paw on a container he too may end up confused as to what you actually want & you end up having to re-train them again. Probably really better if you can to keep training & playing time seperate. Personally I didn't really take to the clicker - I couldn't see it as being better than praise & treats myself - but maybe that's just me - Tara likes play & food (as does Joyce), Jo liked food so I favoured those more. Edited June 12, 2007 by Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LurcherGirl Posted June 14, 2007 Report Share Posted June 14, 2007 Tara & Jo were the first dogs I'd trained - so you make mistakes along the way. As a result I'd now be careful of using "good" for anything other than praise myself - In the past I found that I'd inadvertently taught Tara (who loves to chase balls - Jo didn't) that "good" - when I was simply praising her for doing something I wanted (like wait / stay for example) - meant we had finished & she could run off & play instead of continuing to do what I was praising. I'd done this without realising by mixing play & training, praising her for having waited as I wanted & then immediately letting her go off & chase a ball Later when I said for example sit, she did it & I said good I realised that she now effectively heard finish / you can go chase you ball. I always mix play and training... it's the only way I can get my lurchers motivated to do anything! Training for my dogs is just playing with very specific rules, that's all! In your example if you want to praise him with good boy in future & have also taught him that good means put your paw on a container he too may end up confused as to what you actually want & you end up having to re-train them again. No, "good" (used as a clicker word in the example I have given) doesn't mean to my dog now to put a paw on the container! It means that what he just did was the correct thing... just as it would with a clicker. The cue for putting the paw on the container is added at a later stage and can be whatever word I want it to be, but it won't be "good". "Good" or a click simply means to the dog that what they have done is correct, which has earned them a reward and yes, that the exercise is finished now! But as my dogs know that it is likely that more training is to come, they only tend to go off and do their own thing when I actually tell them to because they are way too keen to get more treats and fun when training. Probably really better if you can to keep training & playing time seperate. As mentioned above, training as well as playing are fun times and get mixed here all the time! Training really should be not much more than sophisticated playing... After all, I also want my dogs to listen to me when they are playing (or doing anything else), not just when I am training! Personally I didn't really take to the clicker - I couldn't see it as being better than praise & treats myself - but maybe that's just me - Tara likes play & food (as does Joyce), Jo liked food so I favoured those more. I do not want to offend you at all and fully accept your view , but these are comments that I often hear from people that don't really understand clicker training and how it works. My dogs know within seconds if I use a word instead of a clicker and that word can be anything, though it is usually short and sort of sharp like "good", "yes", "click", "yip" etc. They know the clicker training principles, they know a click is always followed by a treat, they know that a click means that they have done the right thing and they know that the click finishes the exercise. It just takes a couple of repetitions to make them link a word to a treat and realise that the word works the same as the clicker! Praise and treats are fine, but often general praise and treats (particularly treats) don't get to the dog quick enough and it is harder for them to figure out what they actually get rewarded for. Yes, I use praise (and treats if necessary) as well in everyday life, but for formal stuff or more specific problems, clicker training wins hands down every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alison Posted September 10, 2007 Report Share Posted September 10, 2007 Sorry if I'm either posting in the wrong place or hijacking the thread, but I've recently addressed Sol's one and only "problem" behaviour - random thuggery towards other dogs - with clicker training. It's been quick, easy and thoroughly successful so I'm really chuffed. I knew nothing about it but took advice from a friend who competes in working trials and Dog Rescue Lover (Sarah). I road tested Sol for the first time in what could potentially have been a nightmare situation on Sunday (lots of other dogs on an on-lead walk) and he didn't even wear his "ambush" face, let alone think about kicking off. My problem now is that everyone wants to know how to bring about such a miraculous transformation in their own dogs and I haven't a clue! It was easy with Sol; he's very bright (not just saying that), very focused on me generally and achievement and treat orientated. Because we're essentially together 24/7 I also know him inside and out so could almost read his mind and see the signs. The instant that I knew he was thinking what I wanted him to ("another dog. Hmm, shall I? Nah") I could click and reward (on the "I'll give it a miss" thought, obviously, not "shall I?")! My friends problems are: 1) A very detached lurcher who can run like the wind and become absolutely deaf to her owner once she's decided to leg it. She's not remotely interested in treats or praise at any time. 2) A timid greyhound, rehomed 2 months ago. He's becoming playful around the home and garden with the lady of the house but is very frightened of life otherwise. He's also scared of the lady's husband who loves him dearly (but is not pushing the dog in anyway or trying to fuss him). This is a boy who loves treats but refuses to eat even the tastiest morsels outside his own home and particularly in public. 3) A 5 year old shaggy lurcher girl who has latterly developed a fear of all sorts of different noises (planes for example). Her owner is worried about her co-ordination - i.e. what if she "clicks" a split second too early or late and inadvertently reinforces the undesirable reaction to noise? Is there anyone here who might be able to help with suggestions and advice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycas Posted September 11, 2007 Report Share Posted September 11, 2007 I don't know about the last one, but I think with the first 2 I'd work on clicker training in the house first, to build up the general habit of obedience and confidence, before even thinking about doing it outdoors. 2) may need more time just to settle. I found with Az that he found the pressure of my expecting him to do stuff phased him for several months: he just didn't want me looking at him that way. It was about 6 months before I could do clicker with him, then suddenly he realised it was fun and got confidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jemimap Posted September 11, 2007 Report Share Posted September 11, 2007 The one major advantage of clicker training for me is capturing behaviour. I generally ahve my clicker round my wrist and always with me when on walks or playing with the dogs. This means if they do something that i would wish them to do again in a certain situtaion then i can click. I don't have to make them do it, then attach a word then practice repeatedly. They will - to start with - just get click & treat whenever that behaviour is offered, once its more consistent i can add a word so that i can then ask for the behaviour. For example, without clicker training, if Dylan greeted a strange dog nicely i would have to just keep saying good boy or whatever and he may not link it preciseley with what i'm praising. With a clicker i can mark that behaviour at exactly the right moment and he is in no doubt what i'm clicking for. The difference in Dylan since clicker training is massive, he has now realised HE can affect whether he gets a click and you can see him trying to work out what it is i want him to do. He loves it and i would never train without one now. Hope this helps a bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alison Posted September 12, 2007 Report Share Posted September 12, 2007 Very helpful (and logical and interesting) many thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alison Posted September 15, 2007 Report Share Posted September 15, 2007 Cycas and Jemimap A quick update on Dog 1 - recall training. He picked it up brilliantly and incredibly quickly. Needless to say, his owners are delighted. He also "sat" on command, something they'd not previously imagined possible (dog no.1 is a dog and not a bitch, oops! My mistake) A couple of photos taken this morning: Many thanks again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycas Posted September 15, 2007 Report Share Posted September 15, 2007 Yay! Well done dog 1 What did they decide to use for rewards if he wasn't very treat-focussed to start with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alison Posted September 16, 2007 Report Share Posted September 16, 2007 Yay! Well done dog 1 What did they decide to use for rewards if he wasn't very treat-focussed to start with? I cheated a bit in that I had a few moments in the paddock with him by myself beforehand and clicker trained him to like treats before the recall training started Shippam's ham paste to answer your question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jemimap Posted September 17, 2007 Report Share Posted September 17, 2007 Briliant!! Alison i have a book you can borrow if you would like? Its a Karen Pryor one and very good (can't remember the title ) Pm me your address if you would like Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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