Is Being A Vegetarian Ethical?

[Jacobean]

Soya is great for people who haven't got an hormonal balance. I can't touch the stuff. I get chronic pain and dreadful episodes. Won't go into graphic details.

 

Soya milk can be fantastic for ladies of a certain age. It can help ease hot flushes.

[Mrs Mop]

A dairy cow’s milk begins to dry up nine to 12 months after giving birth, when her calf would be weaned. This is bad economics so, to keep the milk flowing, she is artificially inseminated two to three months after giving birth. The result? A crushing double burden of pregnancy and lactation for seven months out of every 12. It inevitably takes its toll – excruciating mastitis (udder infection), lameness, infertility and low milk yield. A quarter of all UK cows, mostly under five years old, are killed every year - physically exhausted.

 

 

Not every dairy farmer does this, some leave them dry for a few months to try and avoid mastitis and to build them up so that they can cope with giving birth and the amount of milk they give much better. At one time before mad cow disease cows were kept longer, one of my uncles often had cows still milking well into their late teens and once they had finished their milking days, they were retired to live their lives out normally.

[scotslass]

I've been a vegan for over 12 years, purely for ethical reasons. In those 12 years I have eaten a helluvalot of soya, it's one of my staple foods, and I'm healthy and really active. Being very critical of any study on this subject, my first question is always: "who has funded this study/who is the researcher?" Finding out who's had an interest in the a particular outcome of a study tells me a lot about the reliability of the results.

There is so much info about on the abuse and cruelty that animals in the food industry are being put through I could write a post so long that it would send you all to sleep. If you want to inform yourselves, please check these links:

www.animalaid.org.uk

www.viva.org.uk

www.vegsoc.org/

www.vegansociety.com

That should give you lots of info both on animal and nutritional issues.

 

But we're back to the question "how environmentally friendly/ethical is it to import foreign-grown food", aren't we? If all "foreign" foods were removed from our diets, because we didn't want to increase our carbon footprint, say - what would be left? Vegans would be living on locally-grown vegetables, grains, seeds and nuts. Is it even possible to be vegan on a remote island - like those off Scotland? I think protein sources might be very hard to come by, but am happy to be persuaded otherwise.

 

As for health - my daughter buys her food as locally as possible, eats massive amounts of fruit and vegetables and is the picture of health and energy, but she is only in her twenties. I still worry (as mothers do ) about her long-term health. Any substance which is recommended for menopausal women - as an aid to balance their failing hormones - just ain't safe enough for my precious child, I'm afraid.

[~Canis-Equus~]

Depends on why you are vegetarian.

 

Ive been vegetarian, for two reasons.

 

a/ i was horrified by the methods of animal husbandry and slaughter methods

 

b/ i dont like and physically cannot stomach the texture and flavour of most meats.

 

I dont think vegetarianism for the reasons of animal welfare is ethical. If one still eats cheese, milk, eggs one is still supporting the farming of animals.

 

As has been mentioned - dairy cows dont produce good beef bullocks, but to produce milk they have to calve. So each time you drink milk, especially cheap milk from a supermarket - you are supporting the death of a calf.

 

These calves used to have a purpose, for corned beef, pet food, veal, dependant on teh quality of the beef.

 

But veal crating is illegal (and a good thing to) in this country although i think we now export live veal calves to countries where it is legal (not good).

 

We are all consumed by the need to purchase cheaper and cheaper meat, pet food etc, so we import a lot of it from countries where its produced cheaply, at a huge cost to the environment in clearing forests to create pasture, and of course at huge cost to animal welfare as foreign welfare standards are generally much much lower than in the UK.

 

We could buy organic rose veal which is much less intensively farmed (no dark 4ft by 2ft boxes, instead daylight, milk, grass, feed, space to move around etc etc) - but because of that its expensive... and we dont want expensive!

 

I think it would be much more ethical to either consume no animal products at all, ie be vegan, or to source our meat ethically.... raised in the uk with organic methods, given a good (not just 'satisifactory') life whilst its alive and slaughtered in as humane a way as possible (including not travelling for hundreds of miles).

 

I think this attitude that we must eat meat every day or even in every meal needs to change - we dont need to, and certainly dont need this disgusting intensively farmed flavour free meat stuffed wtih antibiotics and fed unnatural substances.

Good quality meat a few times a week is affordable to pretty much all of us, but if we dont buy it, it may well be that we soon wont have the option at all - our government really dont seem to care at all about food production in this country, we could end up importing almost everything we eat...

 

Our green and pleasant land is green and pleasant due to livestock farming - without it, what will we have?

[wickychoo]

I think this attitude that we must eat meat every day or even in every meal needs to change - we dont need to, and certainly dont need this disgusting intensively farmed flavour free meat stuffed wtih antibiotics and fed unnatural substances.

Good quality meat a few times a week is affordable to pretty much all of us, but if we dont buy it, it may well be that we soon wont have the option at all - our government really dont seem to care at all about food production in this country, we could end up importing almost everything we eat...

 

I am not a vegetarian, I was in my teens but was lured back to being a carnivore by a steak with bearnaise sauce!

Basically I agree with what Emma says above, we get an organic veg box and grow our own veg too and we buy meat maybe once or twice a week from our organic butcher. We will only eat organic eggs and drink organic milk, ideally I'd have my own chickens but space (and the dog) does not allow us that option! Our ethos is that shopping local and organic where possible is better, even if we have the items less often.

 

But I know as there is only 2 of us we have the luxury of being able to afford to do so, but still, there are "cheaper" cuts from the organic butcher, people have lost the art of shopping in these places, they don't know what to look for or how to cook anything other than filleted meat it seems!

 

Its got so that meat is now so cheap that people do expect to have it every day, which is detrimental to their health, the animals in the intensive systems and our rural economy. Very often the "meat" in these processed meals/prepared meat items as said before in this thread is not just "meat" its all manner of crap and filler.

[cycas]

But we're back to the question "how environmentally friendly/ethical is it to import foreign-grown food", aren't we? If all "foreign" foods were removed from our diets, because we didn't want to increase our carbon footprint, say - what would be left? Vegans would be living on locally-grown vegetables, grains, seeds and nuts. Is it even possible to be vegan on a remote island - like those off Scotland? I think protein sources might be very hard to come by, but am happy to be persuaded otherwise.

 

I hear third-hand from someone who used to be involved in supermarket buying that his friends who work in meat buying are now looking at sourcing meat for low carbon footprint, as they expect to be audited on this sometime soon.

 

Surprisingly, this doesn't mean that they will be buying local British lamb. Apparently producing British lamb is quite energy intensive, as upland sheep farming involves using vehicles to take food to the sheep in bad weather and so on. In terms of carbon footprint it is apparently going to be better for supermarkets to buy lamb in New Zealand and ship it frozen to the UK, than to buy highland lamb from Wales.

 

As a gardener, not a farmer, I am rather dubious about the UK's ability to support its vast urban populations on local food. An awful lot of our land is pretty marginal, and round here, at any rate, a lot of it only stays productive because it is manured. If there were no cows producing manure from lowland grazing that gets flung onto the highlands to boost fertility, the land would revert to heather moorland everywhere but in the valleys. One could manufacture fertilisers directly from grass, I suppose, but I'm not sure there are great advantages to using a mechanical cow to make poo that a real cow could make just as well!

 

In the winter our ability to grow anything is pretty limited, and a lot of the more delicate 'local' produce is grown under glass, often with heating. There are social and taste benefits to buying local, but I'm not sure it's can be a complete answer to our carbon problem.

[mooandboo]

But we're back to the question "how environmentally friendly/ethical is it to import foreign-grown food", aren't we? If all "foreign" foods were removed from our diets, because we didn't want to increase our carbon footprint, say - what would be left? Vegans would be living on locally-grown vegetables, grains, seeds and nuts. Is it even possible to be vegan on a remote island - like those off Scotland? I think protein sources might be very hard to come by, but am happy to be persuaded otherwise.

Peas, beans, mushrooms, spinach, kale, potatoes....there's a long list of easily grown sources of protein for vegans - soya doesn't need to feature at all - and there's no need for them to be imported. Vegans would survive very well on locally grown vegetables, grains, seeds and nuts - even on a remote Scottish island. (Obviously depends how remote but it's common sense that if you couldn't survive somewhere you would have to move to a place which could sustain you - vegan or not)

Edited May 16, 2007 by mooandboo

[scotslass]

Peas, beans, mushrooms, spinach, kale, potatoes....there's a long list of easily grown sources of protein for vegans - soya doesn't need to feature at all - and there's no need for them to be imported. Vegans would survive very well on locally grown vegetables, grains, seeds and nuts - even on a remote Scottish island. (Obviously depends how remote but it's common sense that if you couldn't survive somewhere you would have to move to a place which could sustain you - vegan or not)

 

True. I guess living in wild places is a luxury when it comes to survival. That's partly my point - it seems to me a very elitist notion that we can choose which diet we are going to follow, as well as where we go to pursue that lifestyle; it feels self-indulgent when people in other parts of our world are having to eat whatever they can find, be it seeds, rabbit, rat, fish, insect, whatever.

 

Another general question (for vegans) from a concerned mum - does my daughter need to take B12 supplements and if so, why? Even the vegan society seems to say it's essential, and I can't get my head round that. If a vegan diet is complete, why take supplements, including artificially fortified foods?

 

http://www.vegansociety.com/html/food/nutrition/b12/

 

I may sound anti-vegan; I'm not - when I'm with my daughter, we cook and eat vegan. I abhor animal cruelty. When I do eat meat, on occasion, it's as local as possible, and free range/organic. I'm lucky I have the choice.

[mooandboo]

True. I guess living in wild places is a luxury when it comes to survival. That's partly my point - it seems to me a very elitist notion that we can choose which diet we are going to follow, as well as where we go to pursue that lifestyle; it feels self-indulgent when people in other parts of our world are having to eat whatever they can find, be it seeds, rabbit, rat, fish, insect, whatever.

 

Another general question (for vegans) from a concerned mum - does my daughter need to take B12 supplements and if so, why? Even the vegan society seems to say it's essential, and I can't get my head round that. If a vegan diet is complete, why take supplements, including artificially fortified foods?

 

http://www.vegansociety.com/html/food/nutrition/b12/

 

I may sound anti-vegan; I'm not - when I'm with my daughter, we cook and eat vegan. I abhor animal cruelty. When I do eat meat, on occasion, it's as local as possible, and free range/organic. I'm lucky I have the choice.

Human faeces can contain significant B12. A study has shown that a group of Iranian vegans obtained adequate B12 from unwashed vegetables which had been fertilised with human manure. Faecal contamination of vegetables and other plant foods can make a significant contribution to dietary needs, particularly in areas where hygiene standards may be low. This may be responsible for the lack of aneamia due to B12 deficiency in vegan communities in developing countries.

Perhaps we're victims of standards imposed by our own *progress*

[Caz]

Apparently producing British lamb is quite energy intensive, as upland sheep farming involves using vehicles to take food to the sheep in bad weather and so on. In terms of carbon footprint it is apparently going to be better for supermarkets to buy lamb in New Zealand and ship it frozen to the UK, than to buy highland lamb from Wales.

 

That's one basic problem I have with the claim that vegetarianism is more economical per protein requirements.

 

Surely we would have to turn over a lot more fields to vegetable production to sustain a totally vegetarian population but much of the farmland currently used for animals is used for animals because it is unsuitable for growing crops e.g. hills etc where sheep can graze but you can't get a combine harvester! Would we then have to clear more flat land such as forests etc to get more rich soil to grow in? Or would we then rely more on imported produce?

 

I am going about it the opposite way. Instead of turning vegetarian I have started keeping my own chickens, I have been enjoying my own eggs this week as the broody hens returned to laying and when the babies they came with get bigger a couple of the cockerels will be dispatched, cooked and eaten. With me safe in the knowledge they had a happy, free range life, fed on the best foods and killed quickly and humanely before ending up on my plate. The remaining cockerel will be kept to service the chickens and provide with me future generations of chicken dinners.

 

For any of you veggies worrying about the Waitrose eggs thing a baby chick only begins to develop once the egg is incubated (sat on by a chicken or in an incubator) so even if fertilised, a life wouldn't develop unless it was kept warm so eating it straight away is not killing a baby chicken especially as not every egg is sat on, hens don't go broody over every egg they produce!

 

I also think most male chicks from battery farms are sold on for snake food (dead) but veggies shouldn't be buying battery eggs , those from our local free range egg place are grown up and sold for food - cockerels can be nice big birds and give a dry old turkey a run for their money at Christmas.

 

Caz

[mooandboo]

That's one basic problem I have with the claim that vegetarianism is more economical per protein requirements.

 

Surely we would have to turn over a lot more fields to vegetable production to sustain a totally vegetarian population but much of the farmland currently used for animals is used for animals because it is unsuitable for growing crops e.g. hills etc where sheep can graze but you can't get a combine harvester! Would we then have to clear more flat land such as forests etc to get more rich soil to grow in? Or would we then rely more on imported produce?

 

 

 

Caz

 

http://www.ivu.org/congress/thai99/texts/market.html

 

The UK alone uses 80% of its land to raise livestock, it could feed around 4 – 5 times its current population by adopting a vegetarian diet and we would not need to take grain from the mouths of those starving in the third world to feed to livestock. As well as the wastage of land, meat production also consumes over 150 billion litres of water in the UK alone, and, as many of us know, water is not the unlimited resource we once thought it to be. This is hardly surprising when it takes 11,250 litres of water for one pound of meat as opposed to 13 litres for a pound of wheat. The production of this meat also destroys tracts of rainforest, uses valuable energy and water in the process and provides as a handy end product dollops of pollution in the form of animal manure and methane, adding to the greenhouse effect.

[cycas]

Well, yes, but where are they getting those statistics from? How are they calculated? What are the knock-on effects for a landscape that has been farmed using animals for several thousands of years? It's hardly an unbiased source, and I must say those very absolute, confidently stated numbers for a proposition that hasn't been tested are not building my confidence.

[mooandboo]

Well, yes, but where are they getting those statistics from? How are they calculated? What are the knock-on effects for a landscape that has been farmed using animals for several thousands of years? It's hardly an unbiased source, and I must say those very absolute, confidently stated numbers for a proposition that hasn't been tested are not building my confidence.

But isn't that the trouble with most statistics In my view, most people see farmalnd used for animals grazing, the problem comes with intensive farming, the hidden animals, which also need feeding. How much land would be needed to sustain them if they were to live and grow naturally, each having the required amount of space to feed them with the minimum of supplements?

 

I can survive on pretty much what I used to eat when I was a meat eater - minus the meat, dairy etc - so my demand on the land hasn't increased, if anything it has decreased, probably quite considerably. I can't see it being vastly different for most people.

 

The use of land has changed continually as methods of farming have changed - moving to less animal focused use of the land wouldn't happen overnight if it were to happen at all - we obviously don't have enough land to sustain the amount of animals we produce for meat and dairy or there would be no need for intensive farming.

[cycas]

I don't think anyone on this thread is saying that factory farming of animals is acceptable, but I find it hard to believe that just turning over dairy pasture to wheat is the solution -even if you could actually feasibly grow wheat on all or most of the UK's grazing pastures, and I'm just not convinced you could. Cattle, sheep and grass are a lot more tolerant of hilly terrain and poor soils than cereal crops.

 

Factory farming of meat is an argument against factory farming and (possibly) mass food manufacture: I don't think it's an argument for mass veganism.

[~Canis-Equus~]

Not sure thats quite true though... the 'need' for intensive farming is to give maximum output for minimum costs.

 

And the result is cheap meat - certainly thats not what i want (as far as chicken goes which is the worse and most intensively farmed meat there is, i dont eat it, and havent for over 17 years).

 

If we all only ate meat 3 times a week but chose good quality ethically raised non intensively farmed meat, then we could quite well provide enough.

 

If we could go back to the days when many many more people grew their own veg and raised chickens, rabbits, even a goat or a pig for food/eggs/milk then it would be even better, buying stuff in only to supplement what we would struggle to raise ourselves.

 

Ive got so sick of food production in this country, i now grow a lot of what we eat, although i cant have chickens which id dearly love to have, for eggs (i dont really like the texture of chicken meat ) because my tenancy disallows that.

 

I have also set up a swap system with my sister who lives much further south than me - i grow spuds and onions nad carrots but she cant, so she swaps the corn cobs and grapes and apples she grows and gets some of my spud onion and carrots.

 

Im absolutely positive that this country would not, even if it could (And i doubt it very much) provide all of our vegetables, pulses, grains etc were we all to be vegan.

 

For a start much of this country just isnt suited to growing most of thsoe things, and then it would still be cheaper to import a vast amount of it from countries where the labour costs are far cheaper, where various pesticides, herbicides and fertilisers are legal. And then wed be even more reliant on importing food from other countries which as i understand it is not the most politically safe thing to do. (Fall out with the country that provides 50% of our food... and then what?)

 

A lot of the crops we DO produce are produced intensively, at huge cost to the environment - we produce a lot of oil seed rape, and just look at how many people live not even THAT closely to oil seed rape farms that suffer severe allergies.....

 

Im quite happy that the way to go is to support ethically raised meat, organically raised veg, local wherever that is possible.