What Sort Of Country Do We Live In

[Kats inc]

Yes we know how much people love 'car crash TV' type reporting.The juicy details are probably the only bits they do read sadly.I'm not sure some people would even relate to the human face behind some of the stories.

[Rudi]

That's horrifying I can't believe the press found the story too 'boring' to highlight. It seems to happen a lot and the sentences people get are ludicrous. I couldn't believe it when I heard on the news a couple of weeks ago that a couple who had starved their child to death, I think she was about 18 months, got 5 years in prison! Doesn't exactly send a message does it.

 

I agree that people are just not aware how many children die through neglect and abuse. The biggest failure of the media was over the Ian Huntley murders. They screamed on about 'stranger danger' but he wasn't a stranger to those girls. It should have been used to highlight the fact that children are far more often abused and killed by people they know than by strangers but the opportunity was totally overlooked.

[chuckey-lee]

I moved over here about 4.5 yrs ago now and the one thing that has struck me is that family-life overhere is sadly becoming less and less important where are the parents ,grantparents ,uncles, aunties and other familymembers to keep an eye on each other and teach/help each other how to deal with a baby/child? I think it's got to do a lot with child abuse,you dont get the back-up of your family these days any more ,its becoming more an 'each for themselfs' society where money and careers are way more important then family life .Its all nice in the short term to have all the material things now, but what's it gonna cost us in the long term?

sorry , I'm not saying that all parents are bad ,but it is getting to me when a couple starve their little 10 mnth old baby to death,because he gambles up their totall benifits and she is of a low IQ ,where are the family to step in before it gets this far?

why do both parents have to work only to be able to buy that new car or HD-ready LCD telee? I know that in some cases parents have no other choice but in think in most cases they do , ie a child shouldnt be in daycare from the age of 3 mnths,it should be at home with its mum and/or dad learnig about familylife , why have a child for it to be raised by a complete stranger?! like I said,we need to look at the long term and not just the short term

 

ok ,I'd better get off m soapbox now

 

posted at same time as Rudi,I think we're talking the same case here, the child was 10mths and weight a staggering 10 pounds!!!!

Edited April 7, 2007 by chuckey-lee

[elricc]

I totally agree with you, sadly material things have been held up as being a "have to have", rather than a "would be nice to have". Time with your family is seen as not valuable as people work longer and longer hours. I would far far have less than live like that.

[chuckey-lee]

quote from NSPCC site

 

'The people most likely to die a violent death are babies under one year old, who are four times more likely to be killed than the average person in England and Wales'

 

 

:ohmy: :mecry:

[scotslass]

why do both parents have to work only to be able to buy that new car or HD-ready LCD telee? I know that in some cases parents have no other choice but in think in most cases they do , ie a child shouldnt be in daycare from the age of 3 mnths,it should be at home with its mum and/or dad learnig about familylife , why have a child for it to be raised by a complete stranger?!

 

I couldn't agree more. I look around nowadays and wonder what people are playing at - children seem to be just another "must have" accessory. For some reason, "work" is revered - as if bringing children up isn't work. I lost count of the people who asked me "and what do you do?" when I was at home with my four.

 

Some people go out to work and admit that their income barely covers child care costs. They say they'd go mad staying at home, so they farm their little ones out to the so-called professionals in nurseries. I pass a nursery every day, in an affluent suburb; lots of toddlers, supervised (and I use the term loosely) by a bunch of young girls who sit chatting to each other. Is that the best we, as parents, can do? Don't our children deserve more?

 

Liz

[jelly]

Like someone else said, we have become "use" to reading these stories, in my home town not more than a few weeks ago, a man killed his own baby, he had been sexually abusing her and basically torturing her since she was born.

 

This happpened in a home which I walk past every day. It makes me so mad that nothing is being done to stop this, we are letting these kids down all the time, no body seems to be learning any lessons and just another innocent life is ruined.

 

How do these people go threw life, they must voice how they feel or what they would like to do. I simply don't understand how a mother/father can do these dispicable acts to their own children. The other half must notice something wrong?

 

We wanted children, I wanted to watch my children grow up, I stay home to look after them, as this is my job. I am a mother. I love it and at times I hate it. I am often called lazy, lucky, or husband must be on good money for you to stay home as we couldn't afford it. No not at all, We don't have 2-3 holidays a year, we go camping with children and dogs, we enjoy simple things in life like watching our children throwing mud pies.

 

We all turn a blind eye to it, everyday. Everyone was quick enough to voice their opions regarding the war in Iraq, people can talk about that, its accepted, babies, children dying at the hands of the people who are suppose to love and cherish them, we couldn't possibly speak of this, we are all responsible.

 

It makes me ashamed.........

[Ian]

RE the story of a sub-human who faked a car crash to hide injuries inflicted on a baby.

He drove into a tree, then torched the car and dangled the baby in the flames to scorched her little body.

 

It should have been front page

 

I couldn't agree with you more. When I take over the country these scum will end up with a rope round their necks - and if anyone wants to ask it then yes I'd quite happily tie the noose pull the lever and kick away the stool myself - child abuse & rape are in my opinion the worst crimes anyone can commit, though animal abusers & those who brutally attack pensioners could all go the same way for me.

 

RE Ray now buys another paper and I have written to the sun complaining, no doubt that email will be binned.

 

Stopping buying The Sun and related items eg Sky TV which Murdoch also owns is probably the answer - whilst people complain but still buy it doesnt really matter to Murdoch & co.

 

Re Chuckylee, Scotslass & Jelly on child rearing

 

These are generally considered old fashioned views these days but I'd also agree. I've in the past been accused of sexism for making comments like that & some would say there's no wonder I'm single. I'm nothing of the sort however & simply believe one or other parent - it's for each family to decide which - should stay & care for their kids until old enough for school. I'm not against nursery as a social thing for a few hours in a week but in my opinion nobody looks after your kids as well as their own family & no child of mine will ever spend all week in any nursery whatever else we have to give up.

Edited April 8, 2007 by Ian

[Kats inc]

These are generally considered old fashioned views these days but I'd also agree. I've in the past been accused of sexism for making comments like that & some would say there's no wonder I'm single. I'm nothing of the sort however & simply believe one or other parent - it's for each family to decide which - should stay & care for their kids until old enough for school. I'm not against nursery as a social thing for a few hours in a week but in my opinion nobody looks after your kids as well as their own family & no child of mine will ever spend all week in any nursery whatever else we have to give up.

 

Can't say I agree with you although I do understand where you're coming from.I work on a large estate where the majority of parents don't work.In fact one Dad wears a T Shirt proudly bearing the slogan 'lazy and proud'.Personally I can't see much to be proud about in that but there we go.I have to refrain myself from making comments to him as I have to remain professional However most of these parents sit around in the local cafe chatting or outside in gardens drinking.They don't do an awful lot of constructive parenting and the actual saviour for many of these children is nursery.It is often where they learn their ABCs and their social skills and how to talk and how to use the potty as the parents quite frankly can't be arsed to bother with it all.It is often a huge victory for us to get a child a place in a nursery as we know that child actually stands a bit of a chance now.Stay at home parents are not the be all and end all as quite honestly some people's parenting does leave an awful lot to be desired.

[pboae]

I couldn't agree with you more. When I take over the country these scum will end up with a rope round their necks - and if anyone wants to ask it then yes I'd quite happily tie the noose pull the lever and kick away the stool myself

 

Violent revenge might make you feel better, but that doesn't mean it will be the best thing for the victim. Most kids are abused by someone close to them, it's incredibly hard for children to come forward as it is, and often they don't even want the abuser punished they just want the abuse to stop. It may be hard to understand, but they may well still love their abuser. As it is some children already carry (inappropriate, but still very real) guilt from believing it is some how their fault when their family is torn apart, what do you think it would do to them if they felt responsible for their death?

[Kats inc]

Violent revenge might make you feel better, but that doesn't mean it will be the best thing for the victim. Most kids are abused by someone close to them, it's incredibly hard for children to come forward as it is, and often they don't even want the abuser punished they just want the abuse to stop. It may be hard to understand, but they may well still love their abuser. As it is some children already carry (inappropriate, but still very real) guilt from believing it is some how their fault when their family is torn apart, what do you think it would do to them if they felt responsible for their death?

 

 

Good point.I remember one particular child who was removed from his parents care at the age of 10.I agonised for days over him as really I couldn't see the point in him being adopted.I knew full well at the first available opportunity he would run away back to his parents,who had emotionally abused him and his brothers terribly.He defended his parents to the hilt and hated myself and the social worker with the utmost of venom.He actually spat in my face once.He saw no wrong in what his parents had done even though they had destroyed his childhood in our 'professional' opinion.If his parents had been publically punished as per your plans how on earth would he have reacted then? Plus I still hold with the view that many parents abuse not out of spite or vindicteness or malice but out of a lack of knowledge or insight or because they themselves know no better.It's often just history repeating itself sadly.No excuse but the sad truth.

[Ian]

Can't say I agree with you although I do understand where you're coming from.I work on a large estate where the majority of parents don't work.In fact one Dad wears a T Shirt proudly bearing the slogan 'lazy and proud'.Personally I can't see much to be proud about in that but there we go.I have to refrain myself from making comments to him as I have to remain professional However most of these parents sit around in the local cafe chatting or outside in gardens drinking.They don't do an awful lot of constructive parenting and the actual saviour for many of these children is nursery.It is often where they learn their ABCs and their social skills and how to talk and how to use the potty as the parents quite frankly can't be arsed to bother with it all.It is often a huge victory for us to get a child a place in a nursery as we know that child actually stands a bit of a chance now.Stay at home parents are not the be all and end all as quite honestly some people's parenting does leave an awful lot to be desired.

 

 

I'll admit there is more to the subject than a quick post could cover but I think we are talking about two totally different tracks here - I was referring to what I would consider decent to be people but misguided parents. You are referring to people who whether it be due to their own inadequacy, laziness or even the inadequate teachings by their own parents are incapable of bringing up a child in proper and responsible manner. That is something that society certainly needs to address urgently but a totally different thing to paedophiles & any other deliberate physical abuse of a child.

Edited April 9, 2007 by Ian

[Ian]

Violent revenge might make you feel better, but that doesn't mean it will be the best thing for the victim. Most kids are abused by someone close to them, it's incredibly hard for children to come forward as it is, and often they don't even want the abuser punished they just want the abuse to stop. It may be hard to understand, but they may well still love their abuser. As it is some children already carry (inappropriate, but still very real) guilt from believing it is some how their fault when their family is torn apart, what do you think it would do to them if they felt responsible for their death?

 

 

Excuse me? Where did I say anything about feeling violent, wanting revenge or to personally feel better? My views are about none of those. I accept some of what you say from the childs point of view may be true - but that does not make it correct and sometimes I'm afraid the facts of life are that some adults genuinely do know better - and there is no way that anyone will ever convince me that deliberate abuse can be excused or left unpunished.

 

The children you refer to will certainly need help and support - whatever happens to that abuser. If the family concerned had been providing appropriate support much of the abuse would in my opinion not escape notice for so long.

 

I think however that whilst that child must be given that support there is also a need to think of the wider picture. IE whilst some forms of abuse may genuinely occur out of ignorance or their own bad experiences / learning many abusers, paedophiles etc do it knowing full well that it's wrong but they choose to do it anyway - and they do it again and again and again. When the punishment fits the crime they certainly wont do it twice & many more children will be spared this tragic experience.

[Ian]

Good point.I remember one particular child who was removed from his parents care at the age of 10.I agonised for days over him as really I couldn't see the point in him being adopted.I knew full well at the first available opportunity he would run away back to his parents,who had emotionally abused him and his brothers terribly.He defended his parents to the hilt and hated myself and the social worker with the utmost of venom.He actually spat in my face once.He saw no wrong in what his parents had done even though they had destroyed his childhood in our 'professional' opinion.If his parents had been publically punished as per your plans how on earth would he have reacted then? Plus I still hold with the view that many parents abuse not out of spite or vindicteness or malice but out of a lack of knowledge or insight or because they themselves know no better.It's often just history repeating itself sadly.No excuse but the sad truth.

 

 

Whilst I believe there are differences in causes between emotional and physical or sexual abuse as you say yourself history often repeats itself - sometimes in a very vicious circle - tragic but true. So why, knowing that, would you possibly not see the point of getting this poor child out of that circle and into adoption or even responsible fostering where he could in time learn exactly what was wrong with it and stop it ultimately repeating with his kids too?

 

He'll run away - Well I'm sorry but that's in part what our taxes are paying you to stop. I'm not suggesting that's easy, that there's a quick fix etc but he's a 10 year old child who knows no better and has been taught some perverse values whilst you are a responsible adult who does know right from wrong. It may not be easy to solve how you stop him running away but that is the job you've chosen to take on.

 

How would he react to his parents public punishment? Without knowing the child I could only speculate but I would suggest in the same manner he reacted to being taken away from them. He's probably confused, frightened uncertain about the future and lashing out at you because you don't particularly matter to him where rightly or wrongly the only faily he knows does. That doesn't make it right though - somehow that circle must be broken and as I said above I believe the wider picture is that many families and children would be prevented further heartache if they were forced to think about their actions and consequences through what happened to others and seeing that child abuse of any form is not normal and not acceptable - end of story

Edited April 9, 2007 by snow
To remove remarks in breach of forum rules.

[snow]

With respect Ian - people who have posted in this thread are professionals which includes me - having spent over 20 years supporting child abuse victims it is never quite that simple or that black and white.

If the family concerned had been providing appropriate support much of the abuse would in my opinion not escape notice for so long.

 

I'm afraid thats not true - abuse escapes notice because the abuser is above suspicion in many cases, or because they have brainwashed the child to reveal nothing either thru fear or conditioning; abused children often receive extremely good support from their families who are desperate to help them and desperate to try and find out what's going on but the child protects the abuser most often thru fear but also not uncommonly thru love of the abuser and fear of the consequences for them and for their families. Abused children have a highly developed protective instinct - they protect the abuser but more importantly they want to protect the non abusing family members.

 

Please do not make the mistake of thinking that all abused kids come from dysfunctional, unsupportive or unloving families - they don't - many come from very loving and supportive homes that are utterly devastated when the truth comes out. Many additionally do receive support but their own non abusing caretaker may also be being abused or manipulated by the abuser.

 

I don't mean to criticise or patronise, instead I do seriously urge you and anyone else reading this thread to actually read up on child abuse, about abusers, about how it happens and why it goes un noticed, read too survivors stories particularily those who still love their abusers very deeply and yes some of you may find that kind of love is very hard to understand - but is it really? It's perfectly possible to hate the sin and to love the sinner, or hate the crime but love the perpatrator, and many of these children and adults do indeed have that duality going on which just adds to all the other issues that they have to cope with.

 

It is not for us to judge them for how they feel or to punish them further for what they have suffered.