Citronella Collars

[phoebejo]

I do not have any faith in behaviourists and will not go down that path.

I take it from that comment that you've had a bad experience previously with one. Don't let that tarnish them all. Maybe the rescue that CB came home know of a good behaviorist or trainer who could advise you?

[Kathyw]

No I have never been to a behaviourist and if I had I would certainly not left one colour my judgement.

 

I have, however, known 5 people, five different dogs with five different problems.

Only 1 out of the five was helped.

The other four helped the problems they went with to a degree but caused more problems in the end, to the point where one dog whose only prblem was food guarding ended up having to be muzzled out in public.

This dog was five years old, owners got her at 10 weeks and had never had a problem other than food guarding before. The guarding food only started after a friend of the owner and her son stayed with them for a weekend and the child kept picking up the dogs food.

So I am not basing this on one incident.

 

I also think that the escalation in CB's behaviour could be being added to by the tension in here at times. There is no shouting/screaming etc but the stress between oh and myself could be affecting CB.

Edited September 11, 2006 by Kathyw

[traceymcl]

Good luck with working on CB's problem.

 

IMO what you are doing is pretty much the same as using a spray collar. Whenevery CB takes a dislike to a particular man (whatever his reason is), you're punishing him by putting him back in the house or leaving him in the car. If he finds being excluded a punishment, it's not really different from spraying him with water.

 

It might work fine - punishment does work sometimes. That's why it's always been such a popular part of training.

 

Or you might teach CB not to warn - he might stop barking at certain men and just bite them instead. Barking at people is unacceptable - biting them is much worse and is much more likely to land you in court.

 

I hope for all of you that it does work - but it's not a risk I'd take with either of my dogs.

 

Tracey xx

[~Canis-Equus~]

Ditto what Traceymcl has just said.

 

Sorry Kathy but he DOESNT know hes done anything wrong, the punishment you have chosen there is in my opinion even less useful than the spray.

 

It takes too long, its not clear enough. If you MUST use a punishment, and understand the associated risks of him misunderstanding or supressing the symptom rather than curing the need to behave that way, use one that is short sharp and effective.

 

 

Far better would be that every time you see a man, you 'open the treat bar' just make sure theres lots of yummy treats to hand (taken from his food ration) and get him to associate seeing men with coming back to 'mum' for a treat.

 

If you do use a punishment and even if he ISNT scared (and id suggest he is, but just scared of something YOU cant see or sense), you will teach him that there is a reason to be worried - he barks at these people, he associates them with a bad thing, all the more reason to shout at them and warn them away again!

 

I dont disagree that barking at random people is unacceptable, of course it is, but punishing it, when he is not going to understand adn it runs the risk of making it worse is not acceptable either imo.

 

Em

[Kathyw]

I have tried the treat one it doesn't work becasue CB cannot hear me over his own barking and although CB comes immediately to a whistle if I did that every time a man came in to view, I would have no breathe left for a walk.

I do not live in the countryside, the parks we use are large but in the middle of London and so are filled with people even in bad weather. You can't walk ten yards without passing someone, if they have dogs CB will only be interested in the dogs. If we are up on the heath where there are bushes everywhere it is worse because I cannot see if anyone is approaching. I no longer go up onto the heath.

 

Also this 'problem' with CB is a recent one. It started after the incident with the so called trainer baiting CB.

Before that we never had an incident, CB was wary of people touching his head and leaning over him.

Then once it started it just got worse.

 

In the heat wave we took him up Parli/Kenwood and Primrose hill, all these places were full of people walking, jogging and picnicing CB just ran around sniffing grass and playing with every dog he could, at the ponds (full of people and their dogs) they called him the meet and greet doggie.

There was no barking at people at all.

Elsa nicked a piece of chicken and I went rushing up to apologise, the man was very nice and I saw he was about to offer CB a titbit and went to say Please don't when CB sat down, gave him his paw and took the treat very gently form the man. This was the second week CB was with us.

We saw this man and his wife last week and CB barked his head off at the man. who was shocked because he thought CB was lovely and friendly.

[~Canis-Equus~]

The thing is, by the time he has barked at them like mad, its too late really to effectively punish, which is the age old problem with punishment.

 

If you are going to punish barking then, disregarding the problems mentioned before, you need to do it the SECOND he opens his mouth to start barking.

 

By the time someonse gone over there, got him, bunged the lead on and taken him back to the car to put him away, he wont remember why its happened. If he looks sad and dejected on the way home its because he doesnt know why he had to sit in the car whilst everyone else got a walk, not because he knows he did the wrong thing.

 

He clearly has a raeson to bark, irrespective of whether you can see that reason or agree its a good one - if there was no reason, he wouldnt bark.

 

If you havent enough breath to whistle him, what about a gundog whistle - especially if you condition him to know that 'whistle = amazing reward'.... the other tack id take is to have him on a long line and ANY time he sees a person wtihout a dog (as that seems to be the problem even if he doesnt bark at them all), recall him and reward him. Eventually the idea there is that 'dog free people = reward from Mum'.

 

That CAN be done - one of my dogs issues is giving other dogs what for, hes never physically hurt one but he likes to zoom up and pin them down and scream in their faces that He Is Boss. This is obviously totally unacceptable, but we have got to the point, after several YEARS, not weeks, of training, that 'other dog in distance = look to mum for game with ball'.... thankfully i found the thing he likes better than being a bully, and i CAN now have him off lead within FEET of the sort of dog hed really like to be horrid to, without him even thinking about it.

 

I dont live in the countryside either, although its more rural than london ill grant you - in fact i find the countryside WORSE as its full of..... duh duh duuuuuuuuuh, SHEEP (which should be banned i think!) - so we still have to contend with other distractions getting in our way. The biggest problem here is free range dogs, usually very opinionated terrier types (and as mines one of them its always a bad situation to be in!).

 

Em

[DanishPastry]

You have just proven everybodys point, that Charlie is scared. He started to react after the man provoked him, something that would be quite frightening to most dogs, yet you kept letting him off the lead afterwards, practicing this "unacceptable" behaviour. The more a dog practice a certain behaviour the better they get at it, and so the correct way of handling it back then would have been to keep him on his lead, and start the positive reinforcement training right away, to make him understand that men are not a thread. It is still not too late to start doing this, but you still choose to go down the punishment route, which quite frankly is a lot more uncceptable to me than a dog barking at people, who he for what ever reason associates with a scary experience.

You say you know 4 dogs who got worse after seeing a behaviourist, well I am not surprised as there are a lot of dodgy people out there calling themselves behaviourists, but you have something they don't, you have the knowledge and support from Refugees and DP'ers, people who can give you personal recomandations of who to use and who to stear clear of.

I am slowly losing hope that any of this will get through to you Kathy. You seem to only want to hear people agreeing with you, not actually asking for advise, so this will be my last post as it is too upsetting for me thinking about Charlie and how you, by your own choice, refuse to help him get over his fears. Yes, he may stop reacting outwardly if you punish him enough, but this will only make him more unpredictable and dangerous, as he will give no warning when things get too much for him to cope with.

[dlmckay]

I think you're all in danger of anthropomorphising here. CB isn't necessarily frightened, but when spooked, instead of running to mum who's the boss and supposed to be in charge and all emcompassing security, he's taking matters into his own hands and barking.

 

I'm on Kathy's side here. Would you all be so fluffy with "give him cheese/liver/clap your hands, get excited" if he was lunging and biting? It's only one step away from barking at people...

 

Now, I haven't met CB, but I'm of the opinion that

* CB's a dog

* Dogs need rules

* CB's new rule is "no barking at people"

* Zero tolerance to barking will stop it.

 

Taking CB to the car and letting him miss out on the walk is fairly light punishment if you want to call it that. Whacking him on the nose is a punishment. Going back to the car and having time out is not punishment.

 

Kathy, Raven is hit and miss with other dogs, so when I see one, I call "WITH ME" and she knows she's to stick by my side until the dog has passed. Perhaps you could teach this with CB. If you want the technique (it's so similar to a recall), then let me know.

 

Diana

[DanishPastry]

I'm on Kathy's side here. Would you all be so fluffy with "give him cheese/liver/clap your hands, get excited" if he was lunging and biting? It's only one step away from barking at people...

incidently yes , to STOP him doing those things, and replace the unwanted behaviour with a more wanted one, through good association, not punishment. If I punished my BSD she would be crawling next to me and never return if I let her off her lead, that is not the kind of relationship I am after with my dogs, I take my powertrips out on my boyfriend instead (who can defend himself and tell me to F off when I am unreasonable).

[dlmckay]

Laugh - lots - I would not use a "fluffy" approach with a bolshy dog - I'd use a firm, insistent approach. I would be extremely firm if necessary and claps and cheese are for dogs who need encouraging, not dogs that are taking matters into their own hands by barking.

 

So, the rest of my post? Pointless just taking one quote out - what about the rest of what I put? Do you disagree with that too?

[traceymcl]

Now, I haven't met CB, but I'm of the opinion that

* CB's a dog

* Dogs need rules

* CB's new rule is "no barking at people"

* Zero tolerance to barking will stop it.

 

Taking CB to the car and letting him miss out on the walk is fairly light punishment if you want to call it that. Whacking him on the nose is a punishment.

Kathy, Raven is hit and miss with other dogs, so when I see one, I call "WITH ME" and she knows she's to stick by my side until the dog has passed. Perhaps you could teach this with CB. If you want the technique (it's so similar to a recall), then let me know.

 

Diana

 

Hi Diana,

 

I really agree with this. CB does need new rules and absolutely needs to learn that barking at people is unacceptable. However, letting him run at people barking and THEN punishing him for it is not the way to go about teaching him a new rule. I really like your WITH ME command - it's a really good idea.

 

 

I'm on Kathy's side here. Would you all be so fluffy with "give him cheese/liver/clap your hands, get excited" if he was lunging and biting? It's only one step away from barking at people...

 

Yes I would. I own a male bullmastiff who went through a period in his life where he was dangerously aggressive towards other dogs. He very badly injured another dog - in fact, if it wasn't for the fact that he listens well to me and stopped when I told him to, he would have killed it.

 

In spite of lots of people telling me not to be so 'fluffy' and 'wishy washy' and that I had to be firm and 'show him who's boss', I used no punishment with my dog. Not even something as mild as marching him home.

 

At his worst my dog would react aggressively toward any fast moving dog even if it was miles away, any young, entire male even if it was miles away, any dog he didn't know coming close to him. Any spaniel shaped dog especially fast moving ones were his worst nightmare. Training classes were out of the question because he was far too disruptive.

 

I used clicker training and TTouch on my dog. He is no longer a danger to other dogs - in fact, he quite likes them now. We compete in HTM now, he spends 2 nights a week in training classes, he's fine with entire male dogs, I brought a young, male cocker spaniel into the house for a few days during the summer without any aggression from my dog - even when the spaniel pinched his breakfast. If I'm going on a walk with somebody else and a new dog, he's the one I take with me because he is very calm and far easier to manage around other dogs than my friendlier but much more exciteable bitch. In fact, when I wanted to see if the little spaniel I had would like a game with another dog, Cal is the dog I took out with him because I knew he'd politely play bow to the little guy but would back off if he didn't want to play - which is exactly what happened. He's also very much easier in training classes than my bitch as he can lie quietly while the other dogs are working whereas she sometimes gets in a state.

 

I belong to a bullmastiff forum with hundreds of members. Sadly, dog aggression is very common in the breed and a lot of people on the forum are dealing with it. Mine is the only one who has recovered from a dog aggression problem well enough to be trusted to play off lead with other dogs. The best anybody else on the forum has managed with their dog aggressive bullmastiff is to teach the dog to ignore other dogs.

 

Positive training methods are not 'fluffy'. Properly used, positive methods are powerful tools that can change a dog's whole attitude toward something that they don't like.

 

The best that punishment and 'being firm' can do is make the dog to stop behaving badly - that isn't good enough for my dogs. It might be enough for some people but I want more for my dogs.

 

Tracey xx

Edited September 12, 2006 by traceymcl

[LukaBeama]

Whatever you decide to do to help modify his behaviour Kathy (and I sincerely hope it involves seeking the help of a good behaviourist) please muzzle him or keep him on a lunge line in the mean time. As we all know, he doesn't need to actually bite someone to attract the attention of the DDA- just intimidating someone by approaching them offlead and barking or lunging could be enough to land him in trouble if they make a complaint

 

I am dealing with aggression issues with my one of my own dogs and I would never have seen the improvements I have without the help of a fantastic behaviourist. There are some brilliant ones out there and at least they will be able to assess him and tell you if his behaviour is based in fear (which I would imagine it is) or not

Edited September 12, 2006 by LukaBeama

[LurcherGirl]

Would you all be so fluffy with "give him cheese/liver/clap your hands, get excited" if he was lunging and biting?

A very, very, very clear YES! Treating aggression with aggression usually causes more aggression! Punishment is never the way to go when dealing with aggression!

 

Vera

[staffymonkey]

The thing is, by the time he has barked at them like mad, its too late really to effectively punish, which is the age old problem with punishment.

 

If you are going to punish barking then, disregarding the problems mentioned before, you need to do it the SECOND he opens his mouth to start barking.

 

By the time someonse gone over there, got him, bunged the lead on and taken him back to the car to put him away, he wont remember why its happened. If he looks sad and dejected on the way home its because he doesnt know why he had to sit in the car whilst everyone else got a walk, not because he knows he did the wrong thing.

 

He clearly has a raeson to bark, irrespective of whether you can see that reason or agree its a good one - if there was no reason, he wouldnt bark.

 

If you havent enough breath to whistle him, what about a gundog whistle - especially if you condition him to know that 'whistle = amazing reward'.... the other tack id take is to have him on a long line and ANY time he sees a person wtihout a dog (as that seems to be the problem even if he doesnt bark at them all), recall him and reward him. Eventually the idea there is that 'dog free people = reward from Mum'.

 

That CAN be done - one of my dogs issues is giving other dogs what for, hes never physically hurt one but he likes to zoom up and pin them down and scream in their faces that He Is Boss. This is obviously totally unacceptable, but we have got to the point, after several YEARS, not weeks, of training, that 'other dog in distance = look to mum for game with ball'.... thankfully i found the thing he likes better than being a bully, and i CAN now have him off lead within FEET of the sort of dog hed really like to be horrid to, without him even thinking about it.

 

I dont live in the countryside either, although its more rural than london ill grant you - in fact i find the countryside WORSE as its full of..... duh duh duuuuuuuuuh, SHEEP (which should be banned i think!) - so we still have to contend with other distractions getting in our way. The biggest problem here is free range dogs, usually very opinionated terrier types (and as mines one of them its always a bad situation to be in!).

 

Em

 

I think Em has said everything I would, and better. I really hope you do decide to try and take a positive approach first - it may take longer, but rather than simply masking the problem, it may actually help CB feel confident and secure enough not to bark so much... and at least if he does, you know he's not scared to warn when he's unfomfortable, so he won't escalate straight to bite-without-warning.

 

I think you're all in danger of anthropomorphising here. CB isn't necessarily frightened, but when spooked, instead of running to mum who's the boss and supposed to be in charge and all emcompassing security, he's taking matters into his own hands and barking.

 

I'm on Kathy's side here. Would you all be so fluffy with "give him cheese/liver/clap your hands, get excited" if he was lunging and biting? It's only one step away from barking at people...

 

 

Um, yes, I would, actually. I'd be on here and DP to ask for personal recommendations to find a qualifed behaviourist who specialised in helping aggressive dogs with positve methods. I'd muzzle and longline excercise until I'd had their recommendations, but I certainly wouldn't start punishing - by isolation, choke chain or electrical collar - because my dog was expressing their fear in the only way they can - by being a dog.

 

As tracy says...

 

 

Positive training methods are not 'fluffy'. Properly used, positive methods are powerful tools that can change a dog's whole attitude toward something that they don't like.

 

The best that punishment and 'being firm' can do is make the dog to stop behaving badly - that isn't good enough for my dogs. It might be enough for some people but I want more for my dogs.

 

Tracey xx

 

Tracy and Em's stories are just a couple of many that I've heard about the amazing changes you can make in your doglet's life therough positve reinforcement, whether on your own, or with the help of a good behaviorist, so please, please do think about how much happier CB could be...

[dlmckay]

A very, very, very clear YES! Treating aggression with aggression usually causes more aggression! Punishment is never the way to go when dealing with aggression!

I didn't say to use aggression - I agree that aggression breeds aggression - but, being firm isn't aggressive. I was defending Kathy's method in taking CB into a time out though and saying that shouldn't be construed as being "punishment".

 

If you read my post, I suggest that Kathy uses a "WITH ME" command to pre-empt any barking... which traceymcl picked up on

 

I just had this visual image of a freaked out barking dog, with some hapless member of the public pinned against a wall and the owner ineffectively clapping hands and calling in a squeaky voice "here Fido, look, I've got some cheese!"

Edited September 12, 2006 by dlmckay