Andrea Charman, The Lamb Marcus, And The Online Protest.

[cycas]

I read the cut down version of this story in The Week and then felt the need to go and read the whole thing here to see if the invective against the online protesters was really as strong as the cut-down version suggested : http://www.timesonli...cle7026207.eceA slightly more factual version from the Guardian: http://www.guardian....drea-charmanNow

OK, threats against the poor woman who introduced a lamb to a school are lunatic, criminal and in every way, not on. And to me, the project seems like a good idea.That said,I don't think it is that odd that people objected to this, and I think that dismissing those objections as sentimentality is simplifying things.

Food is controversial stuff, and so are interactions with animals. It's not lunatic for a principled vegan or vegetarian to object to this type of project, as many of them do to all animal farming. There are a lot of veggies out there, if they think something is wrong, I don't really see why they should not say so (within the law).

I'm not even sure that it's unreasonable for a meat eater to object, actually. If I have this straight, there is a mechanism in most mammalian predators which discourages the consumption of familiar prey animals - I've forgotten the technical term. It's the reason that, for example, the damn cats can bring a mouse into our house and if he makes it through the first 24 hours or so, all six felines will then decide he's a family member. Mr Mouse is then free to run riot on a diet of cat biscuits until the human residents finally manage to apprehend him and fling him from the house with curses on his head.

It's the reason I can have a sighthound who would cheerfully kill a wild rabbit sitting by the fire with a rabbit in my living room. There are rain forest tribes that think it's really horrible to kill and eat a pet animal - animals for eating are hunted wild animals, animals that live with you are family members. We - and other predators - do have an ability to accept other species as members of our family. If we didn't, we probably wouldn't have predator-species companion animals like cats and dogs, and very likely we'd find living right next door to people who aren't in our immediate family pretty difficult too.

So, yes, it's a good idea for children to know where their food comes from - but it's not a strange new urban phenomenon for people to struggle with the idea of people killing and eating animals they have got to know well. It's not intrinsically stupid or unnatural. Arguably, it's more natural than farming animals for meat, if you go back far enough.

The problem is that reluctance to eat an animal with a name, and the desire to eat the unnamed 'outsider' animal leads directly to the horrors of factory farming. But I don't think that means that welfare-focussed small scale animal raising for food is, or should be, entirely uncontroversial.

(Incidentally, all these surveys that say children believe cheese comes from rats and so on - does no school child get any credit for a sense of humour? I mean, imagine you are a kid being forced to complete a survey which you are told you must fill in, but crucially on which you can lie with complete impunity. I reckon it's odds-on that at least some of them are going to go through the form going "hahaha, and then I told them cheese came from rats LOL!"

Well, I would, and given the number of people who gave their Census religion as 'Jedi' I don't think I'm alone, somehow.)

Edited February 20, 2010 by cycas

[blackmagic]

sorry, neither link works

[cycas]

Whoopsie - sorry - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/rod_liddle/article7026207.ece

 

and http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/wordofmouth/2010/feb/12/lamb-school-teaching-andrea-charman

[Ian]

Whilst, not having children, I can only look at it hypothetically & admittedly these children were from a farming community anyway, I don't think I'd personally have been happy about someone else deciding when to teach my primary school age kids such a harsh lesson on the food cycle.

 

To then go on and sell the meat of an animal they had all befriended just seemed wrong and "cruel" (to the children) to me. It may be hypocritical of me, as a meat eater, but I don't tend to think of the meat I buy as a living animal. If I reared that animal personally however (or even known the animal growing up) I don't think I'd ever want to kill them (or allow anyone else to do so)

 

 

 

I'd also question what lessons she was giving those children, ie to me a teachers role is to educate on facts - neutrally and offering all (or at least as many as practical) options not just to "educate" the kids in her own beliefs alone and/or without consideration of parental / cultural values. Whilst I've only seen so much of this story I had some reservations about whether this head was achieving (or even aiming for) that

 

 

[Ian]

Having just read the Times link I'm left wondering whether "the cyber-facists" next aim will be slaughtering a "lousy journalist". I thought The Times was supposed to be a quality newspaper. I'd have thought that article too crass for The Sun / Mirror

 

[BillyMalc]

There's been a whole song and dance on FB about this too, which I've effectively seem to have killed (bad pun intended!). As you all know, I'm a vegan, have been for 15 or so years and went vegan for animal rights reasons - so you'd think I've strong views on it and would want to go over with a meat cleaver and do to that teacher what she's done to the poor lamb.

 

Errrr, not so. As much as I strongly feel that that lamb had as much a right to life as any of the children in the class, I think it's about time that (at least some) people are made aware of in no uncertain terms where their food comes from. These children come from a farming community, so their parents probably are sending 1000's of little Marcuses, with different faces, to slaughter ever single month - or whatever the cycle is. It is a shame that children and their parents, weren't actually escorted to the slaughterhouse to see how Marcus, and the rest of his little friends, were put to death for their plates.

 

Marcus was pampered up to the end, and was transported on his own, not in an overloaded truck with 100's of terrified other animals, and possibly had a very calm end, as opposed to the animals who get kicked, shoved and prodded in line to meet their end, by slaughterhouse workers who get paid by the piece, and to who animals are numbers on a cruel production line, which needs to produce an X amount of meat per day in order to satisfy management and ensure a pay cheque every month.

 

There are millions of Marcuses every day, with similar little faces, with the same feelings of wanting to live and an intrinsic horrible fear of death - it's in all of us, or else the species wouldn't have survived. Their only "bad luck" is that they weren't taken on by a class of school kids, so their faces remain anonymous and nobody cares about the fact that they wanted to live too.

 

That is what meat production is, nothing more, nothing less. And I think that if you want to eat meet you should face up to that, just as I think that everyone who considers breeding dogs should be made to go to rescues and meet the dogs who are going to be PTS that day. Play with them, walk them, give them treats, or watch them cower in a corner for that matter, and when the animal's time is up, accompany them to the vet and watch their life end before your eyes. If you then still want to keep eating meat, or breed dogs for that matter, then at least you can't say that you've never known what happens to the animals that suffer and die for your preferences. This is what makes us humans different from non-human animals: we can consider the consequences of our actions and make informed choices whether they would be right or wrong. Animals can't, so that's why cats and dogs won't see the hypocrisy of killing one member of another species (such as the mouse or rabbit) while accepting another one as a house mate.

 

With a bit of luck at least one of these children has become so upset over Marcus' death that it's put them off eating meat forever. That child will save the lives of 100's of animals in their life time. Now if they then don't turn their hand to breeding dogs instead of breeding sheep/pigs/cows/chickens, then I'd say we're on to a winner

[cycas]

That's really interesting Billy. I agree with you on most of that, but was indeed expecting you to take the other angle.

 

What really annoyed me about the articles was the assumption that the people who thought it was a bad idea and protested must be idiots.

 

I think the Marcus project was a good idea, but it seems to me that on a controversial topic like food, it's inevitable that there will be multiple viewpoints and that each view deserves to be taken reasonably seriously and considered carefully and critically on its merits. Assuming that rearing animals for food is uncontroversial if it is done kindly was surely a bit rash...

 

 

[cycas]

To then go on and sell the meat of an animal they had all befriended just seemed wrong and "cruel" (to the children) to me. It may be hypocritical of me, as a meat eater, but I don't tend to think of the meat I buy as a living animal. If I reared that animal personally however (or even known the animal growing up) I don't think I'd ever want to kill them (or allow anyone else to do so)

 

 

 

That's a good example of exactly the predator familiarisation process that I mentioned above. Logically (as Billy says), by raising the animal you eat yourself, you can give the animal a much better life and death than it would otherwise receive: the only strictly logical alternative to doing that is veganism.

 

Emotionally, it's a different story : like my predatory Az lurcher who considered my Ash Bunny a member of his pack, you register animals that you know well as 'my people', not as dinner. It's a fascinating phenomenon.

[BillyMalc]

Ian - to me it would be no more cruel than to Marcus, who thought that these people were his "herd", and then gets sent away by them to be killed.

As for cruelty to the children involved, I'll bet you anything that in one of the children's households they had lamb chop for Sunday dinner that week. As the child was tucking in, father, with a "sense of humour" says: "that's Marcus' leg you're eating there!" Child's jaw drops, eyes open wide and cries out: "nooooo!" while running away from the table, up to their bed room and crying their little eyes out on their bed. Father thinks he's cracked a great joke, while older brother says: "I'll have it if the little ain't!"

[Ian]

Victoria, I'd not read anything about this before but fascinating indeed. I can see that logical argument & each time something like this is posted anywhere I "briefly wonder" about whether I ought (logically) to be(come) a vegetarian, vegan.

 

Likewise, I also think that animals should have a better life than battery farming etc and yet I'm not convinced that you can really kindly rear & kill an animal, however you do it. To me therefore, Billy's position of veganism is probably the only one I'd see as truly logical. In truth though I like meat & am not sure that I actually want to give it up. and hence the "hypocritical"

 

 

 

Billy, Like Victoria, I could probably agree with a lot of what you've said. Where we perhaps differ is that whilst I'd agree that we, as adults, can & should consider consequences make choices (& I can't immediately offer an age at which I think that ought to change) etc, surely your average primary school child, just like Marcus, can't be expected to make those choices (hence the point I was trying to make on teachers roles) & is "merely" a reflection of parental (family, teachers, etc) views & behaviour? In your last post/example, whilst, sadly, it probably does happen just like that in some homes, personally I'd consider that verging on cruelty (certainly too harsh a lesson for such a young child & be appalled by any such fathers behaviour.

 

As an analogy one day we must all at some point learn that Santa doesn't really exist & nor flying Reindeer (with or without red nose). For a time, however, many allow (and probably even enjoy themselves) children to believe in the "magic" of Xmas. Isn't that better than telling a 4 year old there is no Santa & Rudolph is on the Xmas Dinner menu?

Edited February 21, 2010 by Ian

[BillyMalc]

That's really interesting Billy. I agree with you on most of that, but was indeed expecting you to take the other angle.

 

See, told ya! That is what's driving me to despair about some vegans: they're convinced that any means is justified in order to attain "world veganism". No it ain't, and by proclaiming your wish to chop up the teacher with a meat cleaver you're sure as hell won't gain any fans. If that were the case the Taliban would already have achieved world domination ...

 

 

 

Billy, Like Victoria, I could probably agree with a lot of what you've said. Where we perhaps differ is that whilst I'd agree that we, as adults, can & should consider consequences make choices (& I can't immediately offer an age at which I think that ought to change) etc, surely your average primary school child, just like Marcus, can't be expected to make those choices (hence the point I was trying to make on teachers roles) & is "merely" a reflection of parental (family, teachers, etc) views & behaviour? In your last post/example, whilst, sadly, it probably does happen just like that in some homes, personally I'd consider that verging on cruelty (certainly too harsh a lesson for such a young child & be appalled by any such fathers behaviour.

 

 

From what I've understood from the articles, at the time of Marcus' acquisition, a panel of the school kids, aged between 7-11, was asked whether Marcus should be sent to slaughter once he'd reach that age. All the kids but one voted in favour of sending him to slaughter. The kids themselves condemned Marcus to death. If you think you are big enough to make a decision like that then you should face up to the consequences. Ask any child, regardless of age, if they want to live or die, and they will tell you that they want to live. If Marcus had been asked that question, he would undoubtedly have told you the same. These children will have learned a hard lesson, that will hopefully stay with them for a while - and as I already said above, the vegan in me thinks that if it makes only one of these kids go vegan then it's been worth it.

[murtle]

I requested to turn vegetarian after walking past the local abbatoir on my way home from primary school, so this is very interesting to me. I think it is important for all children to know where their food comes from not just meat. In my sister and mine case, I saw something that was very cruel, she saw *dinner*. She loved and continues to love her meat. I come from a red meat eating family.

 

What the teacher did I think was correct, and would like to see it taught in more schools. It's a lesson not only on where food comes from, but also the monetary market if you take the pig to slaughter you can buy more. If you don't, you can't. By teaching this kind of practise gives children the ability to make informed choices as to what they want to eat. A friend turned veggie after her Mom, explained to her that the meat on her plate was from the same animal she'd seen in the field on that days car journey...it was lamb.

 

Having spent my placement in Mauritius, you'd be surprised at peoples reactions to food and where they come from. We had people adamant that coconuts are brown hairy things that hang from trees, not those green or orange things. Pineapples were another one as they grow from trees in a similar manner and when pointing out pineapples you could guarantee that people would look above their heads.

[gremlin22]

just to clarify, was the teacher going to make the kids watch the slaughter itself or just the lamb being sent away and coming back as pre packed meat?

 

i would have thought if they were actually going to see the slaughter parental consent would have to be sought.i mean if you can't teach a kid sex ed without permission watching an animal slaughtered goes beyond that.

 

that said i totally agree with billy malc. However I am a meat eater and a total hypocrite. I used to childmind for someone who owned the hunt pack in our local areas ( don't get me started on that , no i don't agree with it and i was 16 and doing school holiday cover). he used to collect all the still borns (calves) and skin/butcher them in his shed to feed to the pack. That whilst creeping me out a little was at least a natural death for the calves,but he used to let his kid ( 2 yr old) watch him skinning the animals whilst they were hung from the ceiling,i'm sorry but I just don't see how exposing such a young child to that on a regular basis won't make the kid have a slightly skewed view of death.it was messy and dirty not butcher shop clean, and the dogs obviously would go nuts when they were fed it.

 

back to the hypocrite thing tho, someone has put in planning permission to build an abbotoir behind the kennels i work at. It is a large kennels ( 115dogs 85 cats), with hydro, training and a vets on site as well as a rescue. Aside from sending the animals nuts, if that moves in I will go veggie. we are trying to stop it.

i don't think the teacher should have been made to quit her job especially since the student council and governers agreed

[Ian]

 

From what I've understood from the articles, at the time of Marcus' acquisition, a panel of the school kids, aged between 7-11, was asked whether Marcus should be sent to slaughter once he'd reach that age. All the kids but one voted in favour of sending him to slaughter. The kids themselves condemned Marcus to death. If you think you are big enough to make a decision like that then you should face up to the consequences. Ask any child, regardless of age, if they want to live or die, and they will tell you that they want to live. If Marcus had been asked that question, he would undoubtedly have told you the same. These children will have learned a hard lesson, that will hopefully stay with them for a while - and as I already said above, the vegan in me thinks that if it makes only one of these kids go vegan then it's been worth it.

 

I can see your line of argument but I dont think the links are necessarily clear enough to deduce that myself, EG

 

It says The School Council of 14 children voted, (5 or 6% if there were 250 in the school)

 

It also says many were claimed by parents to be traumatised ................ How many? - More than the 13 voting in favour?.......... and what does this say about what the School was teaching that Council about democracy & properly representing the views of those they were (presumably) elected to represent rather than just their own opinions?

 

Also, that the children voted to send Marcus to market (rather than that the children voted to slaughter him?) They are from a farming community so maybe they understood exactly what that meant, or, maybe they didn't (otherwise why would they be traumatised?) Exactly what was the question put to the School Council?

 

 

 

Murtle, an interesting view point / personal experience at a young age to start with .......... and then I got "confused" .......... pineapples...... I'd have looked above my head too, where else do they grow? Coconuts... green & orange because they aren't yet mature or because they are diseased? (even I don't quite know everything you know )

 

 

 

[BillyMalc]

Gremlin - I don't think the teacher was going to make them watch the slaughter, that was just me being harsh and saying that the kids and their parents should watch what they subject animals to before they end up on their plates.

 

Ian - sorry, wasn't clear. I read the above in a different article, for which I haven't got a link